[dell]

That's part of the problem. But it's not impossible to have the game be balanced in this fashion.

I personally believe the game is balance enough for it to be fun and challenging but I would love to see more challenging stuff you've mentioned but currently, that sort of stuff would be Mods-Only things. I don't think Bethesda need to waste time on such stuff while they have plenty of glitches to fix, DLCs to add, and Expansions to make.

[Hannah Whitlock]

I play blindfolded, wading in a tank of alligators. Oh, and wearing steel wool mittens.

[sarah]

I personally believe the game is balance enough for it to be fun and challenging but I would love to see more challenging stuff you've mentioned but currently, that sort of stuff would be Mods-Only things. I don't think Bethesda need to waste time on such stuff while they have plenty of glitches to fix, DLCs to add, and Expansions to make.

The fact that you can take down Alduin very quickly if built correctly shows that the game isn't that balanced.

This game is more reliant on stats rather than skill, so taking Alduin down quickly is not a matter of dodging at the right time, counter attacking at the right time, etc in other ActionRPGs like Kingdom Hearts, Skyrim is much more stat based, meaning if you can hit Alduin for half of his HP with one regular sword swing, something is wrong.

[Erich Lendermon]

The fact that you can take down Alduin very quickly if built correctly shows that the game isn't that balanced.

This game is more reliant on stats rather than skill, so taking Alduin down quickly is not a matter of dodging at the right time, counter attacking at the right time, etc in other ActionRPGs like Kingdom Hearts, Skyrim is much more stat based, meaning if you can hit Alduin for half of his HP with one regular sword swing, something is wrong.

(What is with the Double Quoting! >.>)

The game is balance enough to make sure things can be very hard to kill, as long you don't go crazy into making yourself powerful. That is fine with me.

As for Alduin, you can't really use him cause he is always leveled. At level 1, he is patheticly easy and die in a few hits but try fighting him when he is level 81. He has way much more health then and takes awhile to defeat him. Specially do it without Magic Resistance... I actually died without my Magic Resistance gear. (I think his Rain of Fire Shout has leveled damage or something)

[luke trodden]

(What is with the Double Quoting! >.>)

The game is balance enough to make sure things can be very hard to kill, as long you don't go crazy into making yourself powerful. That is fine with me.

Then don't give us that option if it breaks your game.

That's not fine with me. And as a designer myself, I can't believe Bethesda has been doing it for so long.

[Emmi Coolahan]

but why would a mage use heavy armour?

I agree with the rest of your post, but

http://images.uesp.net/0/09/OB-class-Sorcerer.jpg

http://images.uesp.net/9/98/OB-class-Spellsword.jpg

http://images.uesp.net/thumb/7/7d/MW-npc-Divayth_Fyr.jpg/600px-MW-npc-Divayth_Fyr.jpg

I suppose those aren't mages, but heavy armor is totally stylish on magic-user builds.

That's not fine with me. And as a designer myself, I can't believe Bethesda has been doing it for so long.

There's plenty of other games that impose arbitrary restrictions on players.

[Tiffany Castillo]

There's plenty of other games that impose arbitrary restrictions on players.

Right, I forgot, arbitrary restrictions are the only way games can be balanced. Silly me.

[Iain Lamb]

Then don't give us that option if it breaks your game.

Bethesda prolly gave the option for those who wishes to be God-Like and overpowering which I know for sure there are people like that.

[Sunnii Bebiieh]

Bethesda prolly gave the option for those who wishes to be God-Like and overpowering which I know for sure there are people like that.

It's possible to do that without breaking the game.

[Add Me]

It's possible to do that without breaking the game.

No because you are basicly saying doing that same thing is breaking the game.

[Vincent Joe]

No because you are basicly saying doing that same thing is breaking the game.

Incorrect.

You can be "godlike" and "overpowering" without breaking the game.

How?

With some things that can temporarily negate or ignore your "godness."

If, for instance, all Dragon Priests had a 20 ft aura around them that Dispelled enchantments or bonus from potions/food, you have given parts of the game a boost and a player will still be godlike, if they fight the Dragon Priest in one manner rather than another and the game as a whole is not broken.

[Nick Tyler]

Incorrect.

You can be "godlike" and "overpowering" without breaking the game.

How?

With some things that can temporarily negate or ignore your "godness."

If, for instance, all Dragon Priests had a 20 ft aura around them that Dispelled enchantments or bonus from potions/food, you have given parts of the game a boost and a player will still be godlike, if they fight the Dragon Priest in one manner rather than another and the game as a whole is not broken.

An Overpowering character is someone who can kill anything without no challenge. Are you worse at vocab than me?

[Betsy Humpledink]

An Overpowering character is someone who can kill anything without no challenge. Are you worse at vocab than me?

Again, that's not correct.

It all depends on the scope of the game.

Let me give you an example.

There is something in the industry that can be roughly called "player balance." There's symmetrical balancing, asymmetrical balancing, and "player balancing."

Player balancing is when the player is given a temporary ability that completely overpowers the game world or has some sort of specific negative to it.

An example of this would be the Super Star in Mario and the BFG in DOOM.

The Super Star makes the player invincible (except from falling into pits), however it is a temporary invincibility. The BFG in DOOM could clear the entire screen of enemies, which is "overpowered" but it was balanced out by having a small ammo supply.

Again, it depends on the scope of the game. You can have an "overpowered" character that can tear through 90% of enemies, but if there are enemies that can stand up to the player you can still balance out a character that is "overpowered."

Scope is important. My example with the Dragon Priests is what I mean by scope.

If you stand within the aura the Dragon Priest has on them, you are no longer "overpowered" because it nulls your enchantments, stay outside the aura and you're still "overpowered" because if you happen to be playing as an Archer or Destruction Mage, you could still kill them with ease.

Scope is important.

[.X chantelle .x Smith]

I know what you are getting at. You want tougher enemies as in ones that have more abilities and the such so they can be more of a "Think Right and Win Easily but Think Wrong and Lose Easily.".. This will be hard to do because there are no scripts, as I know, that can read the player's armor rating, perks, and other such stuff. Thus, it is impossible for the game to know what you actually have. That is why it is set on your level cause that can be calc'd and easily set your enemies to that level with w/e health, fatigue, and magicka.

Now, if Bethesda updated their scripts so they can calc what perks you have, your resistance to damage, etc then give your foes other perks to combat that those stuff then yes, I can easily see this happening but currently, there is no such scripts that can do so and I don't think it is even possible. The only way to give enemies special abilities is to let them have such things at the start of the game which can cause a lot of issues when it comes to having combat.

So we are kinda stuck at just making our foes have higher combat level, more health, and such. Personally, I don't mind this and I would wish that Bethesda could've made the level system from 1 to 80 instead of 1 to 50. Would give us a lot more harder enemies to fight, that's for sure.

Some NPC's in Fallout New Vegas and Fallout 3 had perks. They were usually the more powerful ones, like the NCR Veteran Rangers.

[Nicole Mark]

I'm a level 39 Shadow Mage (Theif/Mage) and as soon as I start thinking I'm a big boy in this game, I run into enemies who test the Oblivion out of me. And I'm playing on normal difficulty. I just don't know what's with guys like Horhey - have you ever stopped to think that maybe you're just superpowered? I don't even want to know what these enemies would do to me if I cranked the difficulty all the way up, stopped using enchanted gear, stripped off naked and insulted their mothers before engaging in battle.


I don't know, I just find it really hard to believe that anybody outside an elite few would find it remotely easy unless they're playing as a warrior. These Forsworn pillagers are a nightmare to fight in groups! I've only recently gained the fortify destruction (reduces cost) enchantment and haven't applied it to any of my gear yet, but judging by your posts it seems you wouldn't be using any such measures yourself anyway.

I must conclude that you're not entirely human.

[Daniel Brown]

I'm a level 39 Shadow Mage (Theif/Mage) and as soon as I start thinking I'm a big boy in this game, I run into enemies who test the Oblivion out of me. And I'm playing on normal difficulty. I just don't know what's with guys like Horhey - have you ever stopped to think that maybe you're just superpowered? I don't even want to know what these enemies would do to me if I cranked the difficulty all the way up, stopped using enchanted gear, stripped off naked and insulted their mothers before engaging in battle.


I don't know, I just find it really hard to believe that anybody outside an elite few would find it remotely easy unless they're playing as a warrior. These Forsworn pillagers are a nightmare to fight in groups! I've only recently gained the fortify destruction (reduces cost) enchantment and haven't applied it to any of my gear yet, but judging by your posts it seems you wouldn't be using any such measures yourself anyway.

I must conclude that you're not entirely human.

Get the Dual Wielding, Backstab, Assassin's Blade and Shadow Warrior perks and combine them with the Elemental Fury shout while wearing Ancient Shrouded Armor and Alduin will become an insect compared to you. He is nothing.

[remi lasisi]

I'm a level 39 Shadow Mage (Theif/Mage) and as soon as I start thinking I'm a big boy in this game, I run into enemies who test the Oblivion out of me. And I'm playing on normal difficulty. I just don't know what's with guys like Horhey - have you ever stopped to think that maybe you're just superpowered? I don't even want to know what these enemies would do to me if I cranked the difficulty all the way up, stopped using enchanted gear, stripped off naked and insulted their mothers before engaging in battle.


I don't know, I just find it really hard to believe that anybody outside an elite few would find it remotely easy unless they're playing as a warrior. These Forsworn pillagers are a nightmare to fight in groups! I've only recently gained the fortify destruction (reduces cost) enchantment and haven't applied it to any of my gear yet, but judging by your posts it seems you wouldn't be using any such measures yourself anyway.

I must conclude that you're not entirely human.

He's doing it by using what is arguably the most powerful build in the game- the Dual-Wielding Sneaky Assassin. Played properly, this spec can one-shot anything in the game, on any difficulty setting, without ever being detected, which makes combat a total joke. Of course, that's also the whole point of the spec; it's designed to ruthlessly abuse the AI's utter incompetence against concealed opponents, since in many games that's often the only way one can survive on harder difficulties.

Skyrim's combat, however, isn't difficult enough to require such builds; as a result, if you properly raise one the opposition doesn't have a chance once you get mid-range or better equipment. This isn't something that can be laid on the player of said character though, since (s)he is just using the systems provided in the manner best suited for that particular build. Rather, it's a failure to account for the power of extreme crafting when seeding the top-end encounter lists.

Proper opposition for such characters can be provided while not screwing over those who don't stack crating skills, however I'm not sure it can be done with such a simplistic (+/- HP/DMG) difficulty model. It's also not easy to do while simultaneously avoiding giving said opponents 'I Win' buttons against a given spec, use of which is generally considered bad form.

[Quick draw II]

He's doing it by using what is arguably the most powerful build in the game- the Dual-Wielding Sneaky Assassin. Played properly, this spec can one-shot anything in the game, on any difficulty setting, without ever being detected, which makes combat a total joke. Of course, that's also the whole point of the spec; it's designed to ruthlessly abuse the AI's utter incompetence against concealed opponents, since in many games that's often the only way one can survive on harder difficulties.

Skyrim's combat, however, isn't difficult enough to require such builds; as a result, if you properly raise one the opposition doesn't have a chance once you get mid-range or better equipment. This isn't something that can be laid on the player of said character though, since (s)he is just using the systems provided in the manner best suited for that particular build. Rather, it's a failure to account for the power of extreme crafting when seeding the top-end encounter lists.

Proper opposition for such characters can be provided while not screwing over those who don't stack crating skills, however I'm not sure it can be done with such a simplistic (+/- HP/DMG) difficulty model. It's also not easy to do while simultaneously avoiding giving said opponents 'I Win' buttons against a given spec, use of which is generally considered bad form.

Because the AI is so terrible you don't even need the total extreme builds.

Death Lords were no problem as I would simply Stealth, shoot them with an arrow, re~hide, shoot, repeat until they died.

[lexy]

Because the AI is so terrible you don't even need the total extreme builds.

Death Lords were no problem as I would simply Stealth, shoot them with an arrow, re~hide, shoot, repeat until they died.

Heh, if you stack crafting skills you can one-shot them from range without potion use. Yeah, it's massive overkill for almost everything else, but it feels good dealing back what they handed out at low levels. That it also works on Dragon Priests is not so good, although that's more due to bypassing their defenses than anything else; if alerted, they can be a right pain to take down.

[Solène We]

He's doing it by using what is arguably the most powerful build in the game- the Dual-Wielding Sneaky Assassin. Played properly, this spec can one-shot anything in the game, on any difficulty setting, without ever being detected, which makes combat a total joke. Of course, that's also the whole point of the spec; it's designed to ruthlessly abuse the AI's utter incompetence against concealed opponents, since in many games that's often the only way one can survive on harder difficulties.

Skyrim's combat, however, isn't difficult enough to require such builds; as a result, if you properly raise one the opposition doesn't have a chance once you get mid-range or better equipment. This isn't something that can be laid on the player of said character though, since (s)he is just using the systems provided in the manner best suited for that particular build. Rather, it's a failure to account for the power of extreme crafting when seeding the top-end encounter lists.

Proper opposition for such characters can be provided while not screwing over those who don't stack crating skills, however I'm not sure it can be done with such a simplistic (+/- HP/DMG) difficulty model. It's also not easy to do while simultaneously avoiding giving said opponents 'I Win' buttons against a given spec, use of which is generally considered bad form.

Dual wielding alone is too much. Shadow Warrior is just a toy you dont need. It is very useful for evading Mages and Archers though. Just repeatedly vanish and then silent role in for the kill.

[Erin S]

...right. Well of course it's going to be easy if you're creating the ultimate combat character.

This place makes my head spin sometimes. I went in a few different directions with my character, resulting in a fair bit of unnecessary skill increase in things such as conjuration and one handed that I barely use now - this is something that I get the impression most 'hardcoe players' (not using that in a positive or negative way) would make sure not to do this, but then it also seems that the same hardcoe players would be disappointed that they don't find the game difficult enough.

If you're going to optimise your character around the game mechanics, yeah you're going to find yourself to be 'too efficient'. This is what I've come to really like about Skyrim, it can be adapted to be made easier or more difficult as far as combat and stealth goes. Anyone can make it insanely difficult by creating their characte a certain way, and of course the reverse is also very much possible. Hardly seems like a fault seeing as the decision is in our hands.

[helen buchan]

...right. Well of course it's going to be easy if you're creating the ultimate combat character.

This place makes my head spin sometimes. I went in a few different directions with my character, resulting in a fair bit of unnecessary skill increase in things such as conjuration and one handed that I barely use now - this is something that I get the impression most 'hardcoe players' (not using that in a positive or negative way) would make sure not to do this, but then it also seems that the same hardcoe players would be disappointed that they don't find the game difficult enough.

If you're going to optimise your character around the game mechanics, yeah you're going to find yourself to be 'too efficient'. This is what I've come to really like about Skyrim, it can be adapted to be made easier or more difficult as far as combat and stealth goes. Anyone can make it insanely difficult by creating their characte a certain way, and of course the reverse is also very much possible. Hardly seems like a fault seeing as the decision is in our hands.

I made a Stealth Sniper, didn't use Alchemy except so I could make defensive potions and only enchanted my Bow with Soul Trap.

Because of the AI, I could (as I said), simply Stealth, shoot, hide, repeat and the game was cake.

No building the ultimate combat character whatsoever.

[BEl J]

My newest characters is going all the way to level 81, he's only taken 70 hours to get to level 60, I still have tons of the game to do but everything is a cakewalk on master and has been since level 20. He has tons of health, Chillrend does 37 damage plus the frost thing, Daedric Greatsword does 117 I think with fire damage of 30 odd, armour rating is around 200.

I find I level up like lightning in master so I always have tons of health and perks, I'm not going to not use them as that's a totally backwards way of playing the game, I have however not smithed my armour or weapons so they are still weak compared to their full potential, not that it makes much difference just means I have to swing at them a couple more times.

[Claudz]

I like challenge just as much as they next guy, but lets face it, games are only as challenging as you want them to be. I have been playing video games since frogger and pit fall on atari back in 1983. I have played countless RPG's that go back to the original final fanstasy, Ultima, Daggerfall, etc. I beat Mike Tyson's punch out when I was 15 years old, after only playing it for a week. I beat Contra and Castlevania in less time than that. Doom II and Quake arena were boring for me, I racked up so many frags in those games that I felt sorry for the other players and I ended up quitting them in short time. Ultima Online was released around 1996 and I started playing it right away, my guild made so many players quit the game that the developers eventually nerfed PvP and tried to get rid of hardcoe PvPers by implementing the "reputation system" and the "murderer patches" and nerfs to thieves, so that guys like me wouldn't stick around.

Games are not hard, they're easy and they always have been. They were easier 10 years ago then they are today. My skills easily eclipse that of what any game developers would ever deem commonplace for a multi million dollar project. I figured that out about 15 years ago.

Skyrim, is a challenging game if you want it to be. For me, I play it on master difficulty and I don't use health potions or restoration. I play perma death so that when my character dies I delete him. There are times when I will even delete my character if he takes damage of any kind. The game can offer as much challenge as you will allow it to. If your goal is to rush to the ending as fast as possible or to exploit the game then you have no argument, thats your agenda. But lets be real here, there isn't a game out there where you can't do that. No game will ever be challenging to the point where you feel overwhelmed by it. Master of Orion 3 on insane difficulty isn't even that hard of a game if you spend enough time playing it and learning the technologies.

Human element will always overcome difficulty no matter how hard something is.

[Toby Green]

I like challenge just as much as they next guy, but lets face it, games are only as challenging as you want them to be.

This is nonsense. What are you talking about? Ive never been faced with the dilemma of having to figure out ways to handicap myself to make a game more challenging. It's always been the other way around. This is backwards. Just stop. All of you. Im willing to bet the devs are looking at all these silly apologetic comments and laughing at you people. They have already acknowledged there are balance issues with the difficulty.