When people want to nerf abilities in a single player game... I just think they're [censored] kids competing with their friends for achievements and they didn't think of it first.
DON'T USE SMITHING IF YOU DON'T WANT TO.

Its funny that people keep using this argument. Its basically a veiled ad hominem attack against those calling for a nerf. You're basically saying "because they're gutless wretches without any self control, their argument is invalid." This is a logical fallacy. If you're going to try and prove why there should be no nerf, you just can't say "well, you shouldn't do that then."

Once again, the issue here is that from now on, every post about "strongest character build" is going to say take smithing, enchantment, and maybe alchemy (some of those potions can be bought I guess). Every build will always set aside 19-22 perks for perfect smithing/enchanting/alchemy. Because its so versatile. All of a sudden, even though you specced heavy combat, you can just carry +sneak/+pickpocket gear, and be a comparable thief. Or have +lockpicking gear, and never need to put perks in to lock picking.

Also, while its not as valid an argument, why shouldn't they nerf it? Would it not be arguable that any skill tree should be just as valid as any other skill tree? Then why is it that smithing/alchemy/enchanting is completely superior to taking heavy armour/block/one hand weapons? They end up using the exact same gear, just one is more powerful than the other.

The issue isn't so much comparing what character is stronger than another, but balancing the value of player decisions. As it is, I'm not sure I can ever play something other than a crafter, as I know I can use those skills to emulate some other playstyle. I'll be a thief archetype by being a crafter, I'll play a knight archetype by playing a crafter, etc.

Why do you care? Honestly why? you play how you enjoy it, lets other play how they enjoy it, me levelling smithing to 100 doesnt affect your game in any way. Whats next [censored]ing about being able to set the difficulty?

There is always going to be a strongest character build. In this game it just happens to be the Artificer.
If you nerf one, another one will come up.
If Destruction did the most damage everyone would cry that they're forced to take Destruction.
The Warriors would scream "Why even play a Warrior? I have to get in melee range and constantly get beat on and they can just throw a Fireball!"

One thing everyone keeps forgetting is this is not an MMO where they will constantly attempt to "balance" the game.
They put out the game, they'll try to fix bugs but you have to do with the mechanics what you can.
They put out the game they wanted to put out, maybe its not the game you wanted but this is the game it is.

Actually, you should nerf & put limits to a single player game. Making your own choice when playing a game, it's kind of ruining it.
"Ok, daedra sword is too strong, i won't use it". I don't know how it feels to you, but to me it's completely messed up. You should be happy to get this freakin sword, and it shouldn't mess up your game at the same time !

For example, i'm now lv 100 enchant, i can have 100% less mana cost on destruction skills, that means that any skill costs me 0 mana..... senseless to play mage with that. And just ignoring that fact is a pain in the ass.
If only they had put a limit on it, like 75% mana reduction, or 50%, the game wld have been better.

What i mean is that nothing should be cheated, like this 0 mana cost thing. It just deleted my mana bar from the game.

Too bad Bethesda doesn't read forums.

If you want to be OP and cruise through the game on easy m ode with 1-2 hit kills by all means make a warrior with enchanting + smithing. If not DONT DO IT. Show a bit of restraint and sit back and enjoy the challenge. I have a warrior that doesnt do enchant and doesnt buy smithing whoe focuses on 1 hand + block + restoration. It is a challenge playing on master and expert.

I think some of you are just butt hurt that the mage isnt the most OP thing this go around.

All they need to do in my opinion is either make ore/ingots more expensive, or harder to find. At present it's far too easy to just buy materials from a blacksmith, make weapons/armour, sell weapons/armour back to blacksmith, and repeat until levelled up.

Lol. No one nerfs things in a singleplayer game. That's silly.

First, I'm diverging from the OP on this. My issue is not with the rate at which smithing is leveled. That is fine. My issue is with the fact that by focusing so heavily on crafting, it is possible to create gear on the order of 100%-500% better than the top level artifact gear you will ever find. The "nerf" I am calling for is to bring crafting closer in line with standard gear. As it stands, there is simply no question that crafting is simply a superior method. Are you so attached to Fortify Enchanting, Fortify Alchemy, and Fortify Smithing? Because that's what I'm asking to have nerfed/altered. If anything, what they should do is decrease material costs, not increase the strength of the output result.



Yes, there will always be a "strongest" build. I just like for there to be more debate on the matter. Also, "Pure Artificer" isn't really the strongest. Its when you combine Artificer with some other tree of perks. Fortunately that can still be debated.

My issue is more that crafting is on the order of 100%-500% superior to not crafting. Why not bring it down to only a 50% improvement?

I understand that they pretty much cannot alter the mechanics at this point, and really, its OK. Still, it is good for future reference to recognize that crafting synergy on the magnitude we see in the game is a bad thing.

What I am asking for is not equality in character builds (not that mage = warrior, or light armour = heavy armour), but that within my selected focus with my character, that it simply is not a "better" idea to actually focus on crafting first.

Er, so what?

I mean, if you really want to employ that method, you may as well just open the console and grant yourself the skill at 100.

You can also max out pickpocketing in a hurry by finding a pickpocket trainer, quicksaving, buying a point, pickpocketing your money back (stealing this amount of money will pretty much give you a full point of pickpocket, so 5 trains + 5 picks back = a level and you can repeat the process), and reloading when you get caught, but why? If doing so will hamper your enjoyment of the game, don't do it. If cheating will increase your enjoyment of the game, go for it.

People who cheat despite the fact that cheating hinders their enjoyment of the game clearly have a personal problem.

Everyone is forgetting a very simple truth, most players of this game will not log on to these forums to find out that one strategy is broken. Take me for example, before coming to this forum I was already well into my game and had levelled my smithing fairly high and I had already noticed that everything I smithed was far better than what was dropping in the dungeons, so I kept on smithing. By the time I realized that smithing was far too powerful I had already completed half the game and it was too late to turn back and *choose* not to do it. The "just don't do it" argument is completely ridiculous, every RPG video game veteran will strive to find the best gear for his character, but at what point will he realize that the path he chose is broken? Is there a warning in the game that says "beware: smithing is imbalanced"? No. Everyone should stop being so smug and acknowledge the simple truth that crafting in general is not balanced properly in the game.

lol why nerf it. It's like a [censored] check. If you are a [censored], you will level it up asap thinking you're cool, then get a svck experience.

Its COD syndrome:(. Now every juvenile who activision has coddled with nerfing the COD games thinks EVER developer will/should do the same per their request.

What's the coolest game thing you tell people? Grendel Prime brings me memories like of FF8 scaling and Grendels.... I don't even know what a Grendel is, but on long distance drives I would use my Pocketstation (like a Tamagotchi!!) and level my chobo to beat the Grendels lol.... Maybe too old for rpg....

Why bring smithing down? This is really the first game I played where crafting skills such as smithing matters at all. Why are people so upset that smithing in the end creates the best gear possible and is finally worth doing? The game is still very playable and beatable without taking smithing and it probably presents more of a challenge if you dont.

I think some people just cant live with the fact that you have a choice and you dont have to choose the most optimal way (best gear) to play if you dont want to. However is bugs and frustrates them that their playstyle and choices dont lead to the optimal/best gear avaliable in game build. They dont want to limit themsleves and their choices, just the choices of the people who pick a playstyle different then themselves. Some really just can't live with the fact that there is this choice and not actually take it.

I have been leveling as a Warrior. I leveled Smithing. I have Heavy Dragon Plate and Daedric a One Handed Axe. But honestly my One Handed, Heavy Armor and Blocking perks are what makes the armor valuable to me. I might upgrade the armor with just a store bought potion or something but I haven't crafted an Ultimate Crafting Set through Alchemy and Enchanting. I plan to on a future playthrough as a Rogue like character. But when I playthrough as a Mage I won't even take Smithing. So even if it grants a powerful build for other perks, it won't really apply to the type of character I plan to play.

Nerfing is needed when it imbalances a game based on competition. An FPS or an MMO. It doesn't need to be balanced against anything when it's a single player game.

Saying "I have to choose Smithing every single time I play" is just like saying "I have to set the game to very easy every single time I play." Even if Destruction or Archery was the most powerful perk tree in the game it doesn't mean I'd always take it. There are varying degrees of difficulty. Going without a powerful perk tree is choosing a different difficulty. You're making a choice and you have to live with it.

lol this thread is funny. haha

Can you direct something to me, GideonGrey? Most says 'some people' etc, so I was wondering if we could have a meaningful convo instead of your brain thinking about 'many of'

LOL at all the comments xD

Its not COD alone.

My opinion on this matter is formed after GMing several P&P RPGs, and observing the synergies of rules (and often intentionally trying to break on my own, so as to prepare arguments as to why certain things are invalid). What we have here in Skyrim is a set of skills that are simply too versatile not to take. They quickly overshadow any perk. Bladesmen 5/5 gives +100% one hander damage. Properly enchanted fortify one hander gives +40% (or higher) weapon damage (and this is applied to a single piece of gear). Ok, I make a ring/amulet/chest piece/gauntlets with fortify one hander, I now have +120% one hander damage. My base sword is also superior to anything a non-crafter can acquire. So as a crafter, I suddenly have a weapon, and a skill to use that weapon, that is plainly superior to someone who is specced in using that weapon.

So when I tell myself "ok, this game, I'm going to use swords, heavy armour, and shields," my first order of business is going to be improving the crafting skills, ASAP (although far more likely is a balanced approach, raising a bit in smithing/alch/enchant/one-hander/heavy armour/block accordingly). Same goes for any other set of skills.

Once again, its not about balancing characters to other characters, but balancing the worthiness of a decision (perk assignment) at any given level. If I want to be the best guy with a sword, then putting a perk in one hander should be categorically superior than putting a point in enchant.

Wow People this days are so addicted to games lmao fighting over this thread? lol Whats wrong with the word "nerf"? lmao

Choosing to alter the difficulty is categorically different than choosing within your character which skills to improve. My skills are my character's tools. They are all at my character's disposal. Difficulty settings are not a tool to my character. In a RP sense, it once again appears to be superior to choose to focus on crafting first in order to get the greatest weapons, and then work from there.

I personally don't use any crafting skills other than alchemy because I like the feeling of defeating a boss or dungeon and at the end finding some awesome weapon or armor, I found with smithing and enchanting I would already have way better gear and never use any of the named loot in the game. That's just me though

Smithing is ridiculously illogical and needs to be fixed. Dovahkiin shall now be known not for his dragon shouts, but his 1000 damage iron daggers.

To those who keep spamming generic comments like 'this isn't an MMO' need to pull the mudcrabs out of their brains and realize that this is a mechanic that is gamebreaking and makes absolutely no sense in the world of Skyrim.

If I played Final Fantasy 7 and all I used was Knights of the Round Table and then cried "the game is too easy" it's my own fault.
If you choose to make the strongest items in the game and then use them its your own fault son.

For RP purposes you are choosing to play an Artificer, someone who creates Legendary Artifacts far stronger than anything a normal mortal can create. You chose to do that.
But if you decide "I am no craftsman, I will go forth and seek the Artifacts that have been created by greater people than I" than you gotta live with a higher level of difficulty for doing it.

If you're crying "I only want to play this game through once and it svcks that I didn't get to be the strongest possible combination" I have no sympathy for you.