Its been pointed out a dozen times. Falmer is the Merish word for the Snow Elves. They are one and the same. Yet people insist that they are different.
It's like saying Hellas is different to Greece or that Nippon isn't Japan.

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, the pretty boys 1000s of years ago and the ugly spuds are the same race, though the modern ones have devolved. And, if you ask me, this lends some support to my theory that goblins are actually devolved mer that the altmer, in large part, use as slaves and meat shields, and which is why the altmer only allow them to exist.

Hi guys, it seems folks are forgetting a very important thing when trying to compare events in a fantasy video game with the real world. Namely, you cannot directly compare the two worlds. TES is based upon a system of magic, and on Nirn most if not all natural processes are affected by magic. Evolution in the real world takes thousands, but more likely millions of years for speciation.

Oh by the way there are many chemicals in the real world that can cause specific birth defects. Therefore, the Dwemer fed the Falmer a poisonous fungus that after eating it caused birth defects, and once part of their diet it became essential to their survival. This info can be found in an in-game text that rests on Enthir's table in the inn in Winterhold.

In reply to the later part of your post. This is something I touched on in a previous post. Now surely in a magical world there is a way to replace the necessity for the poison with something that is less dibilitating?
A cured Falmer is not out of the question. All that would need to happen is that a single generation is born and raised without the poison in their system.
It's not a genetic birth defect, it's something more along the lines of what happens to babies when the mother is addicted to drugs during pregnancy.

Though, it has been mentioned that the falmer seem to be wholly dependent on it, like how an extremely hardcoe alcoholic will die if not weened from alcohol. This of course assumes the devolution can be reversed.

The Nedes are indigenous. There's just a source that lumps the Atmorans in with the Nedics.

The Falmer already effected by the poison wouldn't be able to be helped as far as eye sight and so on goes, but what of the offspring?

If you could cure the Parent of their addiction then could they bare a normal, healthy child?

I doubt just magically weening falmer from their fungus addiction would make them pretty boys again a generation or two later. Of the evolution seen, it has always been forced (save for bretons) and irreversible. You ask me, the falmer are stuck being degenerated pale goblins.

Not neccesarily so: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080421-lizard-evolution.html

And as you state, Nirn exists in a fantasy world, evolution would be quite quick as there have been numerous transitions already.

One thing no one seems to point out is that during the loading screens we are told that:

"The statue in Irkngthand is the only known visual representation of a Snow Elf before centuries of subterranean slavery twisted the race into the vile Falmer"

Though of course Falmer/Snow Elves are the same thing, and most likely were called Falmer back then as well, this line could be interpreted as claiming the opposite. It does seem to differenciate between Snow Elves and Falmer quite strongly, and is most likely the reason why so many people don't consider them the same race. But also, in this way, we could almost say that the ingame understanding of the names/"modern day slang" has led the terms to mean different things. This might not be correct in terms of the actual Lore, nor perhaps in official documents, but true in the every day life in Skyrim and Tamriel.

But to end the topic, everyone understands that the Snow Elves became(are) the Falmer, people simply disagree on how big the century long degeneration has been and what names they should use to describe them.

You're debating a point from a lore POV. But there are practical considerations to this discussion.

Consider it in a more straightforward manner:
The falmer you see in the ruins and caves are blind, warped, nasty things that cohabitate with vermin. The statue you see in that one quest line is a snow elf, a race of beings that had functioning eyes and lived on the surface. Clearly they are very different from each other physically.

I would posit that the bethesda developers agree with this point. After all, they have 'falmer' in the game, but the DLC is going to have 'snow elves.' If snow elves were equal to falmer, Bethesda would not be talking about snow elves - they'd just say "the DLC has more falmer caves and ruins."

Perhaps another way to think about it is that the altmer, dunmer, dwemer and bosmer are all considered 'elves' and have a common ancestry, but are nevertheless treated as seperate races now. I think it's fair to say the same about falmer and snow elves - once, they were one and the same, but now it wouldn't be accurate to categorize them in that way.

Where on earth do you get the logic that the ones with eyesight died out because being blind would be better? Blindness is NEVER an advantage. Even underground there are lights emitted from mushrooms. Being blind is not a genetic advantage in any way! Having sight in pitch blackness is better than being blind in pitch blackness because if the darkness ends you still have sight.

And look up the lore; the Falmer means "Snow Folk"

"Over the thousands of years that the falmer evolved, to much variation has occurred for them to be classed as the same species." -- If this is true then why can modern caucasoids, mongoloids and negroids interbreed with each other? They are tens of thousands of years apart and they produce fertile offspring.

And it may be possible to pass on acquired afflictions, especially in a fantasy world. In fact, a change in diet for humans and our ancestors changed the way we digest. Example: European descendants are less likely to be lactose intolerant due to early cattle raising and dairy consumption. You say that these changes over thousands of years would change them, yet you only do it for your benefit. Europeans developed the ability to digest dairy products while Africans and Asians didn't, at least not on the same level. Genetic change due to diet, right there.

I have to agree with you, however i still believe that the falmer we see now are todays snow elves, at least until proven wrong by DLC (which would be the only thing right now that COULD prove me wrong) if the DLC can manage to bring back the ancient snow elves that were the beautiful, eye using, civilized but still voilent race that even though nobody has seen (except for the goblin like creatures we see today) but still has managed to get alot of peoples love/affection/sympathy/rights activists lol, and they are able to bring them back in a way that makes sense and still follows the lore that TES has created over the last decade or two. then i will admit that im wrong and be happy to do so.

Agreed.
Goblins being degenerate mer would go some way to explaining why the Altmer are so fond of breeding laws.
My pet theory is that the goblins of Oblivion are what is left of the Ayleid.

I like where you're going with this...

So your suggesting that the fungi they ate altered their genetic material? This couldn't happen.

What could have happened is that all falmer were forced the eat the fungi, but the ones with bad/no eyesight due to a random mutation survived and the ones that had normal eyesight died due to the fungus. But this would need thousands of years for them to evolve blind.

The end of the day, this is a game, who's to say an in game book is correct over logic based on the real world, it's nonsense anyway. Many aspects of the real world are the same in tes.

You're right there are specific examples of distant species with common ancestry producing fertile offspring, but more examples of the inverse, over time too much variation has occurred for them to produce fertile offspring. I gave an example above to how the bad eyesight could have evolved, note that I said 'unlikely' in my above comment. I also said this isn't the same as the real world, so who knows, all we can do is speculate.

Do you not see how these people have evolved? The diet has resulted in people evolving in a specific way over time, but it's not that the food altered their DNA, it's that the ones with mutations for the allele that stops lactose intolerance survived or were superior in passing on their genetic material. This means that some situation occurred in which the snow elves with bad eyesight passed on their genetic material but the ones with better eyesight didn't, likely in a situation where eyesight wasn't necessary to survival.

I'm unsure about this because so many people in game describe the snow elves as descendants of the falmer. But I just had a read of the falmer lore uesp page, which supports what you say, so I guess I was wrong.

It's unknown to us whether modern 'falmer' are part of the same species as their descendant 'falmer' though, it's possible that they could breed as described above, but very unlikely. I guess I assumed (based on what I heard ingame) that snow elves were the descendant species of the falmer.

long story short, whatever happened between then and now has no impact on their names because their names didn't undergo many generations of underground mutation.

There's no reason at all why the Dwemer could not have bred Falmer who had a specific weakness to fungi which made them blind. Eugenics is a perfectly possible proposition in this context.

Equally:
If the Falmer live in darkness and are acclimated to that there is no reason whatsoever for them to require light to see by or indeed eyes to see that light. There are many other ways for them to sense their surroundings.
At a push the glowing staffs one sees could be warning markers to people straying into their caves, they could be part of some method of coraling Chaurus, they even be emitters at a specific wavelength to act as markers.
As for fire, fire generates heat just as much as light...

What he is suggesting is that on Tamriel other factors promote change as genetic evolution.
Which does not exist on Tamriel. It cant, there hasnt been enough time for anything to diverge via genenetic evolution.
Only 6500 years have passed since the Dawn Era.

What you must understand about Tamriel is that its reality is shaped by mythopoetic forces, not natural laws.
The sun is not a flaming ball of nuclear fusion, it is a literal hole into the shroud between Creation and Aetherius, through which magic flows.
Breathable air does not come in to the biosphere (solely) via a complex plant- animal biochemical interreaction, it is first and foremost the breath of Kyne, emanating from her plane(t) and pervading the entire Mundus.
(Wich is why ships can sail to the moons.)

First and foremost this universe runs on magic, not laws of nature.
The very laws of nature are in fact dead gods, somewhat sentient, and can be persuaded to change (briefly.)

What altered the Falmer was the mythopoetic pressure of their new environs.
Physically and psychologically defeated, driven underground, poisoned and enslaved their form changed to suit their new communal psyche.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1334879-nocturne-for-the-falmer/

Now i've understand why you're so bored with the lack of "new books" in Skyrim Merari..you just don't need the old ones,you already know them by heart ...


= "involution" for those who don't want to "beating around the bush" too much

Sadly, this is correct.

Thank you for this excellent post! I'm quite new to the TES series and didn't know any of this.
It's nice to see that there are people who actually explain why evolution isn't possible on Tamriel, instead of just saying that it isn't.

Nothing "sad" about it..you have given a comprehensive explanation and i almost admire you at this point
just don't take my "jokes" too seriously,i'm a "ball-breaker" but i'm not "so bad" (perhaps) at the end

Youre not bad at all.

You know,you risk to move myself to tears this way