Anyone that played DAoC, what would it have been like if each side had the same classes? What if there weren't as many classes per realm? What if every class had the same amount of surviveability and damage potential? What if every realm had the same abilities at every other realm? What if every realm had access to all of the same equipment? You can make all of the right arguments that these are good and required things for a competitive PvP MMO. Well, you know what else is important? Standing out. Being different. The market is flooded with WoW. "We want to avoid the trinity" yeah you and every MMO in the world. To avoid the trinity is to homogenize the classes. And people are bored of that. SO. To stand out, to not have boring homogenized classes (if there ARE classes), don't make them carbon copies. Don't homogenize them. Don't not diversify for the sake of balance, embrace the trinity its gonna happen anyways. Otherwise... oh look another WoW that nobody will play and you waste a ton of time and money because wow players already have wow and wont subscribe to your game as well. You HAVE to be different. Very, very different. Also keep in mind that even after 10 years people still talk about the good parts of DAoC. It is worth impersonating, as even if you think their class diversity was a weakness, it will go down in history as one of the bests and is still around today. Which is more than you'll be able to say about TES online if you try to 'improve' upon it too much and your game ends up the same as everyone else's. I repeat, if The Correct way of making an MMO means the game is perfect from a design and balance standpoint and that is the norm and what is expected, then to stand you want to make an MMO that is NOT perfect design and balance. Make it cool and memorable at the sake of balance.

There shouldn't be classes and there shouldn't be factions.

There shouldn't be classes and there shouldn't be factions.

I mean factions as in Horde vs. Alliance, Rebels vs. Empire. I don't want an arbitrary decision at the beginning of the game decide my friends and enemies for me, and I don't want that decision preventing me from engaging in hostilities with someone else simply because we chose the same race.

Gah are you nuts? Sorry, but that's what an MMO is. Especially with all the lore and races.

Apparently you have only played AAA Fantasy MMORPGs because all MMO means is "Massively Multiplayer Online." There are shooters, RTSs, RPGs and hybrid genres that fall into this category. There are plenty of MMOs without factions or classes, even some good ones.

OP: I get what you're saying, and my feeling is always that forcing players to find an equilibrium is a much more dynamic solution. However you have to put in a lot more randomness and variables based solely on player skill in the gameplay, and the typical MMO gameplay doesn't really offer that, hence the NEED for dynamic, first-person direct-action combat similar to Skyrim's, where players have to aim everything and the tide of a battle can turn NOT from a nuke of abilities, but from a player using their brain to out-think and out-maneuver their opponent. Then you can do whatever you want with the "classes" and/or "skills." It has to be about player skill. Gear, rotation, level, macros, nukes, zergs should all be secondary in comparison. This is not the case with WoW and most other "typical MMOs." In my view, my perfect game means that a maxxed out player who is careless or dumb could feasibly be taken out by a new character with skill and cunning.

On the subject of factions I really hate the fact that they are race-based. I really wish that they were just political powers who would accept anyone to fight for their cause but you weren't automatically thrown into one by birth...

On the subject of factions I really hate the fact that they are race-based. I really wish that they were just political powers who would accept anyone to fight for their cause but you weren't automatically thrown into one by birth...

You're right I guess I was thinking too much of Guild Wars and WoW. But, if you're wishing that there is no races and classes in a ES MMO, then you're too fixed on different kinds of MMOs.

That would be even worse on lore.

i think he means from a roleplay perspective. hes used to skyrim and having no class and being able to do everything and become a god...not anymore buddy XD, it has to be fair for everyone. your no longer the only one playing.

This is exactly the problem—many MMO players are so preoccupied with “fairness” and “balance” that they drive MMOs towards homogenization with their incessant complaints about what is “unfair” and “unbalanced.”

I do not want to work hard in learning my character and improving it for the end purpose of having it be just like everyone else’s characters—I find no sense of reward or accomplishment in doing so, just a sense of pointlessly running a hamster wheel.

Perhaps if these MMO players learned the difference between equal opportunity and equality, then they would understand why "fairness" and "balance" are not always good things and, thus, MMOs could start evolving into a better product in general.

But, until then, I would prefer the Elder Scrolls Online as a single player RP experience, not as a MMO experience.

On the subject of factions I really hate the fact that they are race-based. I really wish that they were just political powers who would accept anyone to fight for their cause but you weren't automatically thrown into one by birth...

This is exactly the problem—many MMO players are so preoccupied with “fairness” and “balance” that they drive MMOs towards homogenization with their incessant complaints about what is “unfair” and “unbalanced.”

I do not want to work hard in learning my character and improving it for the end purpose of having it be just like everyone else’s characters—I find no sense of reward or accomplishment in doing so, just a sense of pointlessly running a hamster wheel.

Perhaps if these MMO players learned the difference between equal opportunity and equality, then they would understand why "fairness" and "balance" are not always good things and, thus, MMOs could start evolving into a better product in general.

But, until then, I would prefer the Elder Scrolls Online as a single player RP experience, not as a MMO experience.

I agree, having 6-7 dps chars who can all perform the same and the only difference is ranged or not + a different combo of buttons to push is both uninteresting and done to death. Unbalance is welcome at this point.

So i can see there beeing 2 Possible ways they can go with classes (we know there will be classes, we just know) with alot of subcategories so i will try to explain what i mean here.



1. No Class restrictions:
That means everyone gets to play the same Classes (wich is probably the most likeley thing to happen) there are two ways of doing this. First comes the most expected version of not a whole lot of them. Basically having 3 Classes a Warrior ,a Thief and a Mage. The classic TES talent trees, this could mean more class customization as a Wizard for example could pick either Restoration Spells or Destruction spells or mix and match a bit.
The other way of doing this would be to include the classic TES classes (not all of them of course) so you could expect basic classes like the Warrior or the Night but also more iconic classes such as the Nightblade or the Battlemage. This is basically the way most mobile Spin Offs of TES handlet affairs. These classes would probably be more specialized and would have class specific abilities and mechanics, for example i could imagine a Barbarian having such as a "Rage" system. Also basically mixing up Armor restriction on the "base classes" for example a Barbarian would be a Warrior that can use heavy armor while a "Battlemage" would be a Mage that can in fact use Armor and Melee weapons opposed to just robes and staves.

2. Classes restricted by Faction or Race: this is an interresting one as it could be done either realy good or realy bad, one again i see 2 ways of handling this. This way could lead both to more uniqueness of the factions but less Roleplay freedom.

Classes restricted by Faction. This actually makes alot of sense to vary the Factions a bit. For Example the Ebonheart Pact features 3 Races that have no skill in any sort of Heavy Armor. This could lead to the "Warrior" class of a "Barbarian" or "Berserker" while their "Thief" class could focus more on Assasination as both Argonians and Dunmer are best known for beeing ruthless assasins (Morag Tong and Shadowscales) and since astrid we know nords can get quite abit of that too.

The Daggerfall Covenant on the other hand has Bretons (known for beeing Knights) Orcs (that have the highest Heavy Armor skill bonus in the Game) and Redguard with a realy high skill in swords, their Warrior class would be the Knight.

The Dominion would be the odd one out with having no Race known for the pure Warrior archetype, however this makes it even more interresting presenting this Faction with the possibility of having a Hybrid class as their main Melee force. Simmilar to the Thalmor Warriors in Skyrim this would add alot more diversity between the Factions.
The second possibility is to get Races that are directly bound to the Races, simmilar to how Warhammer online handles affairs. Now this is probably the biggest hit or miss Solution here. First it would mean a huge ammount of classes that is hard to balance and even harder to make unique. However with their budget i can see this beeing done. So the idea here is that all the Races can get some truly iconic Classes out of their Race, this would also open up the possibilities to show the sub Races of, for example, the Kahjit a Suthaj Kahjit could be a more rogue like character while a Suthaj - Rath could be the Warrior archetype. Dunmer for example could master the disciplin of Necromancy that is frowned upon by other races wihtout forcing that class on Races where it would be less lore apropriate. We could also get some realy iconic classes that as it stands have only been featured in lore such as the barefisted Kahjit Monks, Nordic Tongues or Ra Gada Alkir swordsmen. and that would only be the start of things, you see where im going. This could be highly enthralling but also realy bad depending on how they pull it off.

Of course there are certain Races that lack a lore apropriate counterpart for some classes wich can be fixed with the fact that they are all part of 3 Race Factions.

Regarding factions, I assume some of the complaints may boil down to ZeniMax having decided the factions beforehand and that people would have liked the idea to decide amongst themselves on who to team up with and form alliances?

So on one server some of the big Nord factions (aka 'guilds') would hold a gathering and decree that all Bosmer should be stomped into the ground before they turn White Gold Tower into the great Deku Tree; whereas on another server the majority of Nords may feel the need to join up with the Bosmer and show those haughty Altmer a thing or two for trying to coax their way into the secrets of the Ayleid.

So instead of having these three factions set in stone by default, it could have been a process where the players decide their alliances and adversaries instead of the developer. So more of a sandbox MMORPG where ZeniMax simply supplies the sand and the toys and let the players simply roleplay around in and evolve within the boundaries of the box.

At least that's what I gather from some of the things and wishes I've been reading on the forums. And personally I wouldn't mind a sandbox MMORPG myself as they seem to be in short supply nowadays

Could not have put it better myself. And potentially still technically achievable by ZeniOnline. I can't imagine it would be that hard to 'turn off' the 3 faction coding. But I'm not going to hold my breath.

Brian