Well we might think a bit differently on the subject on how to divide up the staticness. I have a similar system in place (though not quite as filled as your) with a small database I set up and am filling out as I play.

Good Luck M'Aiq, I hope both our projects are completed

Good luck to you too!

Ultima games handled this well for years. Every dungeon is static, and content doesn't level at all. It is open world. If you run into a dragon in Ultima with a weak character, you just die. You have to be careful what dungeons you enter at a given time. I don't think that takes away from the open world. It just makes certain places more dangerous than others.

You also don't grow THAT much more powerful over the course of an Ultima game, so static dungeons are never a complete breeze.

Ideally, I'd like to see static, unique dungeons. If you want to level/scale content at all, don't replace monster X with a completely different monster that takes away from the unique feel of that dungeon. Replace it with multiple versions of the same monster. One werewolf becomes 3 or 5 werewolves in that spot. If you waited that much longer to tackle that particular dungeon, the creatures started to grow in power there. If you see the dungeon as a nest or base of operations for certain creatures, it seems very natural.

Count me in

That's actually really close to what I thought of doing. To keep low level dungeons fresh, instead of making the enemies harder, slightly increase the number that spawn. If you look at your in game days played, mine is close to 60 days at level 25. That's two months to get new recruits (or be eliminated entirely, but that's a bit outside the scope of this for now :/)

Personally I think that when you reach the max level, you're supposed to be a mighty lord of all who spits in the eyes of the gods and dares bandits to come within ten feet of his MIGHTY AURA OF GLORIOUS DESTRUCTION AS THEY BOW BEFORE YOU AND COWER IN FEAR AND LOVE OR DIE A PAINFUL DEATH ALONG WITH ALL THEIR LOVED ONES IN A HAIL OF YOUR FURY AND WRATH AS YOU TEAR THROUGH THEIR VERY SOULS WITH YOUR BARE KNUCKLES!

*ahem* So yeah, why is being over powered against most foes at the higher levels a bad thing? Isn't becoming more powerful so you can more easily vanquish your foes the entire reason you level up?

I believe there's a point where your character should be a bit over-powered, but what's important is to balance everything so that the "over-powered moment" comes when the player feels he's achieved the ultimate goal. Being over-powered should be the result of achieving that last step past the highest level content, when you've done everything there is to be done and found every epic item. The important thing is to make sure the player can't take huge leaps, from being a normal dude to suddenly cutting through Daedra as if they were butter. As I've mentioned before, trying to enter a dungeon and being "one-shotted" isn't a bad thing since it reminds you of your place in the world; and likewise, going in to a dungeon and ripping enemies to shreds isn't a bad thing either, as it reminds you of your progress.

Exactly, you have to have a progression. The progression curve in Skyrim itself seems to actually be reasonably balanced, it's just when combined with the level scaling I'd say if anything it's too balanced...

I have found the leveling in Skyrim to be remarkably balanced. Things are becoming progressively more difficult for me as I grow in levels, though I am now able to easily slaughter what once caused me much trouble. I had to switch from Master to Expert.

Just wanting to shime in to say : this mod is a great idea, you've my full support.

This is a great idea, and certainly necessary for long-term enjoyment of the game, in my view.

I wonder if you've considered expanding the mod concept a little beyond the scope of just level scaling? Adding new, and expanding existing dungeons would be a great complement to a completely static-leveled world, as would a re-balancing of the creature types in any given dungeon to create a more consistent world (eg, no level 20 bandits or level 1 giant spiders). I posted my thoughts on both in http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1260732-level-scaling-mod/page__view__findpost__p__19358974, in case they're of any interest.

I'd be happy to contribute in any way possible, once I've played [vanilla] Skyrim a bit longer to get a fuller picture of where things stand.

The OP's idea is great, I really miss the sence of adventure Morrowinds dungeons represented.

But I wouldn't make all the dungeons static: Caves and small ruins could be scaled. The loottables for the scaled enemies should be adjusted, so that mere bandits only drop steel equippement or such. The bigger dungeons should be static, with unique loot at the end. And here comes my idea: Would it actually be possible to have a static dungeon, but after clearing it and reentering it again after a set amount of time have it filled with scaled enemies again? The minimum level of these scaled enemies could be the level the static enemies had.

With this idea, you could cater to the people who like a sense of acomplishement in clearing a dungeon, but you could always come back later to get some more dungeon action.

Just my random 2 cents.

Gotta agree with the OP.

Playing Baldurs Gate is a joy. Powerful unique items are always there, and the more powerful they are, the better they are protected.

Nothing brought more joy than battling through a high level dungeon with a mid-level party, knowing that it was going to be worth it.

Case in point; the Windspear Hills Dungeon. A hard dungeon for a low-mid level party, and a fearsome boss (who even gives you the chance to walk away). Apart from the many superb treasures within, the Paladin's sword 'Carsomyr' is an absolutely beautiful reward.

The Baldurs Gate system hit the mark brilliantly - and it's a great shame that Oblivion and Skyrim couldn't emulate this most simple of things.

Rebalancing the creature types is probably going to be involved at one point in the static dungeons, or in the follow-up with unscaled merchants and the like;
But as expanding dungeons... I think it's best if a mod stick to its main idea and don't go into something else. Let's keep the mod about unscaling to be about unscaling and not about adding new dungeons. It's a different objective, not necessarily going hand in hand with the first one - and anyway, the fastest the unscaling mod can be released, the better ^^

You made a wise choice. 50 hours played and 28 dungeons cleared, I've been using bought gear as a mage the entire time, even though buying also is scaled. I haven't met a challenging enemy and I haven't encountered useful loot. Finished up the dragon killing quest a couple hours ago, and got a helmet which is awesome right before entering the final dungeon. First piece of awesome loot, 50 hours into the game and right before I was done with MQ, right before the final battle. That is the only time i've gotten unique loot for my character in dungeons. Useful loot you come by so rarely that you lose all will to go exploring dungeons, especially since the game is easy. I could probably do everything i'm doing now with my mage character completely stripped down. I would need magicka potions sometimes then though, which I don't need at all now.

The game is broken, severely broken. All the people defending the leveling must be playing some obscure way while having a lot of luck at the same time. I haven't met a hard enemy and I haven't found good or unique loot until right before end of main quest.

People talking about linearity from a static mod must be out of their minds. This game has no replay value at all. Each dungeon is as easy and unrewarding as the next, revisiting them is not even thinkable.

I've played like >50 hours of Morrowind each year 6-7 years in a row now, a lot of that vanilla, and it always was unique and certainly not linear. This game feels incredibly linear because everything adapts to you. You could play the game a thousand times and it would feel exactly the same each time, that is what i'd call linear. Static dungeons made Morrowind a joy to replay year after year, and it's never the same.

You're right, now that I think about it; keeping a tighter focus will no doubt result in a more polished/finished mod, sooner. I'm aware of the dangers of feature creep, just got carried away there thinking about dungeon expansions.

Just wanted to say that after some thinking (and dialogue with some contributors), I've changed the scope of the mod from 'only dungeons' to 'points of interest' in general (that is, things that show up on the map).
This makes the workload a bit higher, obviously (~150 dungeons vs. ~350 POI), but most of these POI are just small friendly villages, standing stones or tiny giant camps that only need a quick description. Already, 25% of these 350 POI have been added to the spreadsheet.
This change is due to the fact that even if the dungeons are de-scaled, outdoor areas and friendly settlements would undo all that work by still spawning scaled items, and I felt that we might as well do it properly from the start.

Still looking for people to help out with filling the spreadsheet, obviously
The more the merrier.

I'll give you a good start today and say I like this idea. I blazed through Alfland at around level 9 just knowing in my gut "I should'nt be here...this place looks like trouble." If I get that feeling in a dungeon I WANT to GET MY ASS KICKED. One thing I would like to know..is roughly just how tough these places are going to be, especially if I haven't been to them yet and waste 30 mins running there. I think something like this " ALFLAND (15 -22) or something like that would be a good idea if skyrim is unscaled..or at least the option to have that visible.

Don't know if this has been mentioned in here but most bandits as they are now are literally "random bandits" hence them not having names.

I got a quest in Whiterun fairly early on, which involved Hagravens, my character was level 6.

Now under any normal circumstances, I would assume this quest would be tricky, I would normally think about gaining more experience and levels to attempt the quest.

Under the Skyrim system, my thought process worked differently.

Doing the quest now will be a synch, I'm only level 6 - the Hagravens, although sounding menacing will scale to my newbie level, easy.

...and it was.

There is something wrong with this.

What's the point, I understand getting puny leveled loot and not having a challenge. Instead of making a completely unleveled, How about making the range of leveled enemies that the player can encounter much greater and in proportion loot? Do you believe that the leveling system cannot be fixed?

Either way I wish the best of luck with your endeavors here!

Dungeons like Alftand are tricky as they appear in quest chains. That kind of dungeon will have to be balanced with the other dungeons in the chain so that the level progression within the chain is not too jumpy. Unfortunately Bethesda's bad judgement on these matters extends further than just level scaling itself; dungeons like Saarthal and Alftand are large, have a legendary backstory and are located in impassable and remote terrain, but they both appear very early in different quest chains. Thus, the feeling of dangers from untold eras can't be represented there, as they need to align well with their early occurrence in quest chains (a.k.a. be low level). I'd like both Saarthal and Alftand to be level 40+, but that just won't work. This also has repercussions on what you mentioned about running there and finding it too difficult; if any logic had been used by Beth in the placement of quest locations, 'far away and legendary backstory' could have been used as an identifier for 'this dungeon is high level'. But as I said, many dungeons must feel geographically out of place due to quests, but we'll try to keep low level dungeons around Whiterun and high level dungeons in hard-to-get places.

EDIT: Ok, so Alftand isn't that early in the main quest chain, it's just me that played it in a very sporadic way and forgot many of the earlier steps. But the point remains since there are other examples that fit better.

Read the first post and you might find out.

how about allowing MQ dungeons static also
stuff the leveling system make it u cant progress in the main quest until u are a certain level, or have certain skills?

just an idea?

most people who would use this mod probably wont be rushing the MQ anyhoo!

Please god yes. I believed Bethesda when they said they'd learned from Oblivion's mistakes. But they haven't.

My character is in the 40's now, and the majority of dungeons seem to be scaled UP to his level. His Dragonscale armour means he takes very little damage from their attacks, but their HP values means he has to swing his sword dozens of times before they fall over. It's Oblivion all over again. I just stand there clicking away, without any sense of urgency or danger that combat should carry, waiting until the health bar at the top of the screen slowly whittles away.

YAWN.

Are you planning to remake or expand on some dungeons? I like to toy with Map Editors and make good levels. (I enjoy that the most)

Because alot of their are either to short, the amount of traps and enemies is like nill and the puzzles could of been harder!


So ya... when the Creation Kit. I'm going to see how whats it like making Terrain/Cities/Dungeons. I'll try to post up any decent work and if you like it, I could spend some time re-working the old ones.

We all want a game that is challenging and evolving around us. Certain aspects of the current system do not meet those standards while others i feel do...

I am of the belief that the scaling system can be improved. I understand the stance on static placement. And for all purposes it works. But then i am still forced to go to certain areas at certain times and if i return to other areas i missed they just become a waste of time because im now too high a level (and yes it works in reverse too)... then there is the issue of the Radiant Quest system, if a level 10 radiant quest sends me into one of your pre placed dungeons that was intended for level 40, im screwed. And that level 10 quest reward is completely useless... I think the radiant questing idea is brilliant, even if it just needs some improvement...

For that reason, i think the scaling system just needs to be improved. How exactly, i don't really know. But it is something i have been putting a lot of thought into and will continue to do so. I don't think it is as easy as completing one mod idea that will achieve the desired goal either... Below are some of the things i feel may contribute to gaining the desired result... Some of the items listed basically affect the players level, its kind of like determining a characters Challenge Rating. Based on this Challenge rating you can then approach the scaling system...

• I feel the looting system needs to be overhauled. Scaled loot is ridiculous and destroys immersion.
  [indent]Loot should be more specific and less random
  There should still be the chance of random loot[/indent]
  
• With a more balanced looting system, a detailed economy overhaul should be put in place
  [indent]This includes but no means limited to merchants having specific items for sale
  Remove the scaled inventories[/indent]
  
• The effect of skills have to character leveling. Along with a perk tree overhaul.
  [indent]This helps determine a characters Threat Rating in the world[/indent]
  
• Why not scale monster levels based on type and/or region
  [indent]I do not know how possible it is, But why not scale the level of monsters based on the type it is. Animals never spawning higher than say level 30. Bandits never more than 35. Or give them a range they can be. This still makes the game random and difficult. You wont know how tough that bandit camp is until you attempt to attck it. The last one you took on was easy, this one might be level 30 and your only level 20...
  You could also scale mobs based on the POI. Bandits in bandit camps lower level then those in watch towers
  None of this has to be scaled to the player level. But taking the players Threat Rating into consideration you can then limit lower levels from spawning [/indent]

Another point to is that by making everything static you take away part of the -go where ever you like- feel of the game.

I agree that some static stuff should be placed. Some places should be ridiculously hard and challenging. So i am not entirely against the ideas you have put forth in this thread. I only want to add to the discussion because i feel the current system could be improved.

I personally enjoy the challenges modding gives me. I have never modded a TES game before but i have modded other games. And i always feel that anything you want to accomplish can be achieved even when you have boundaries (such as hard coded limitations). I also feel that to achieve most things you just have to be willing to work with what is already there, improving on it or even manipulating it so it acts more how you want it. And you can do this with hard coded limits sometimes. Its all in the way you approach it. I just like the challenge. With that said, i really am just trying to add to the discussion in this thread because i also wish to fix the same issues as you, i just have a different take on it is all...