Yeah, that's what happened to Morrowind for me. I loved modding, and I couldn't play for 5 minutes before I saw something that gave me another idea. By the time I got around to finally completing the main quest, I had practically memorized every square inch of every cell, knew all the dialogue I was going to encounter, the scripts that were going to be involved, etc. etc. etc.

This time around, I'm going to try my best to finish most of the content before I'll get into modding. Just reading the forums is already ruining some of it for me.

Do you know if the Merida sword is leveled, or if it just svcks?

Because, honestly, most of the stuff I've gotten so far seems kind of underwhelming.

About the strict guidelines, I agree completely. If the mod goes all the way to actual implementation, I will make sure to be very strict with what goes in to the mod. I am a 3D-modelling hobbyist myself, so I know what constitutes a good model and associated texture. And people getting "ideas" will obviously have to be treated with a discussion to see whether it makes any sense. No one is going to be a dictator and say "THIS IS HOW IT'S DONE, SCREW YOU!". I intend to make this a democratic project. But those things come later. What's important now is that if the mod is ever going to take off, we probably need more than just us two working on it, even if any additional contributors only enter the information on a single dungeon, it's still a great help.

I should also add that I'm not a pro with the construction sets (although I do have experience from both MW and OB), so when it gets to the implementation part it's great to have an experienced modder on the team who can lay out a strategy for getting it done.

Regardless of if it's scaled or not, items like that need to live up to their expectations of being artefacts; and if this mod at the very least manages to balance quests and items like that one, it's good enough for me to want to spend my time on it. Receiving a supposedly great artefact at lvl 17 and finding it to be nothing special even at that level is just plain dumb.

Dont you feel this bad? Honestly i dont know how this leveled-list works (yet). asap the cs will be releazed, ill start find it out, and if possible imo, we should expand that too. However i agree with you at all, to make the dungeons much more fun... an truly there is a secret sentence what you didnt want to say, and i wont as well but it seems like some ppl feel it. So what do i think?

1. Imo the dungeons those exist, they should be more like expanded, not just filled by creatures, made by players. Both ways good, but dont delete anything, just add (i say).
2. I dont realy know yet how many instances in the game, and i only can tip the lvl of those (am dancig constantly betveen novice-master lvl). But a way like this, we better do if dont clear those, to get better items later.
3. Which is not rly clear to me : do you want to add new dungeons to game? (best idea, not to complex, and can be enchanted easly, they can be enourmous, they can follow a uniq-infinite system, that make tha dungeon bigger, and bigger.)
4. The base variaton of armors should be increased. I hope, ill be able to make it as a modder resource, but not sure yet.

So if i get rights, ill try fill the doc on google. This project needs ppl who know how to mod soon.

So much for Bethesda PR talks... Level scaling of bandits and critters I can live with but I'm really pissed that certain unique items are still scaled.

What I would like to see is semi-scaled enemies and loot. A certain dungeon is set to have undead enemies between level 10 and 20, and loot reflecting the "guardians" levels. This should be separate from the PC level so if you are level 1 you'll have a tough time with very good loot, but at level 30 it is a breeze with almost worthless stuff as a reward.
And of course legendary items or artifacts should of course always have good stats and not feel underwhelming. (Unless it is the Legendary Hammer of Minor Bruising or something )

This project is not about adding dungeons or enemies, only about changing the current enemies into static ones with unique names (in the case of human/elven characters), unique sets of loot (possibly adding new weapon/armour models to bosses) and fixed levels, so that entering a difficult dungeon and clearing it out will yield gear appropriate to the level of the dungeon, not gear that's scaled to the player's level. Adding new dungeons or expanding current dungeons is a project that would be way too large to combine with something like these intended goals. You mustn't forget that this can never be more than voluntary work by people in their spare time; having a goal that's too far-fetched will do nothing but reduce the quality of what's actually done and will probably make the mod impossible to complete.

And as I said in the opening post, anyone who wants to contribute will have to send me a PM with their gmail address (or another type of address connected to Google functionality, if that's possible) so that I can give you access to edit the document.

And - don't take this the wrong way, I don't mean to be rude - if you want to contribute, please work on your spelling and grammar, or at least use a spell-checker. I don't know if English is your primary language, but I had to reread your post five times before I understood the majority of it. Remember that if you are to type in information about the dungeons, everything has to be crystal clear to everyone who reads this information when we get to the implementation stage. As I said, I don't mean to be rude but if we get to the implementation stage and the information we have to go on is of dubious quality, it will be very difficult to use the information for anything at all.

Obviously a dungeon with static levels wouldn't consist of enemies that are all the exact same level. Even if the dungeon is static in level, it may start with enemies at level 10 and end with a boss at level 20, for example, making it harder as you go.
And yes, loot and enemies independent of the player's level is exactly what this mod will try to achieve.

I remember an Oblivion mod, "Quest reward leveler" that made sure that you weren't punished for doing quests at low levels by giving the player an item that could scale quest rewards to the player's current level.

This might be a simpler solution to that problem, although the level scaling and generic enemies would persist.

It solves it "mathematically", yes. But something that I've been trying to get at with my arguments is that regardless of whether some of the items you receive are statistically good for your character, the knowledge that the game is somehow adjusting itself after your character in almost every other aspect just feels so empty and unrewarding. You are supposed to be a part of the gameworld, not the centre of it.
Fixing only half of the problem like that is why I could never enjoy Oblivion. There were loads of big mods that tried to tinker with the scaling, but in the back of my head there was always that thought that nothing had the heart and soul invested in it like Morrowind did. It's just not the same meeting two hundred enemies all named "bandit" and looting a thousand generic randomized swords, no matter how appropriate for your playing experience they are, when you have played a game where tons of detail was poured into almost every dungeon before. It's as much about immersion as it is about statistics and rewards.

I will look forward to helping test these out once you get to that point.

I understand what you mean. There's little to no sense of progress since the world simply adjusts itself to you.

You can pretty much go anywhere at level 1 save for giant camps (Unless you aspire to become an astronaut) and not have too much trouble. There's no real danger in exploring.

Level scaling atm is ridiculous for one more reason. Game actually "punishes" you for raising non-combat skills...

Artifacts don't scale, they're static, some of the artifact quests however do have level requirements, while others can be done at any level supposing you find the quest for them. There is however still some loot that is leveled, but most if not all of them are quest rewards, so not turning them in until you reach it's max level will net you it's best stats.

Here's the list in case you're wondering: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Leveled_Items

Very much support this. I think an important component when it comes to NPC enemies though would be to combine with a mod that could split up armor suits back into component pieces, were such a thing possible. That way loot could be much more gradated, and each individual enemy given much more uniqueness and personality.

I would like a mod like this to an extent. I'm not sure how i'd feel about all dungeons getting turned into static dungeons though. Quests from random people send you to random dungeons. If it is all turned static this kind of ruins that part of the game because now i'm level 7 with an impossible quest. Maybe i'm misreading or misinterpreting what you are saying though. Also are you saying that you would just add named bosses or would you make a system that names all the random bandits. I would definitely like more named bosses added to the game i would not however enjoy the generic bandits to all have names. I don't feel like it would make sense. If you are getting jumped by a group of bandits you wouldn't know their names they would just be a bunch of bandits trying to murder and rob you.

That was my only concern. How would random quest be done if there are static dungeons? First of all it would have to look at your level and seek a dungeon close to your level and second, what happens when you have cleared all dungeons near your level? It would pretty much limit your random questing?


We need named npcs and unique items.

Maybe in the area the it could be level 5 to 18 etc...

You are not misunderstanding me. We simply have different opinions. In my opinion getting a quest to go to a dungeon and realize it's too difficult is not a bad thing, because if that difficult dungeon is static, there is bound to be great loot in there and you will want to come back as you know the rewards are sure to be great if you clear it as soon as possible (if you enter a static dungeon that is, say, level 25 when you are level 15, and still manage to get to the final chest of loot, you will receive one or two items that will be really awesome for your level and truly a great reward).
It's not just about the difficulty you encounter, though. It's about immersion and a sense of fulfilment, too. As an example:
There is a one-off quest you get where you are to return an artefact to a dwemer dungeon. The dungeon is locked unless you have the quest, and inside there are scripted events and dialogues to overhear. The dungeon is massive and the quest handles a very powerful artefact. Now, I was able to clear this (and kill the boss in 3 hits) at level 18, and the rewards in the final chest was something like a generic magical elven shield worth 400 gold. To me, that ruins the entire build up of a huge dungeon and the artefact being something awesome (and in this case terrifying), and instead it becomes something trivial. If the dungeon instead had been a level 50+ dungeon and had a true artefact as a reward in the end, I would have crapped my pants if I went in there at a low level, but I'd have come back later and the artefact and the setting of the entire quest would feel immensely more important and rewarding.

Bandits outside would still be scaled and named "bandit" as usual, this only affects dungeons. As for dungeon-bandits having names; to me it feels much more rewarding to go in to a dungeon and see that every enemy has been placed there deliberately, and it also gives the enemies their own personalities in a way. A unique name is much like a label that tells me that this enemy right here has been placed here by someone who also gave him loot and skills that feel appropriate to the dungeon - it's not just some random generic bandit that has no back-story or personality and is just there to be cannon-fodder for the player. This is obviously a matter of opinion, but I think that if one goes trough all the trouble of replacing all enemies with static ones, not renaming them while at it would be stupid.

By making dungeons static, you only serve to make the game more linear. Which I'm not a huge fan of.

I like their current level range system personally. There are hard areas and easy areas. I have not found a single "leveled item" in the game, so I don't know what you deal is with that. They actually have unique items that stick to their numbers.

If a dungeon is level 20 - 30, then all the loot in that dungeon will remain consistent between 20 - 30. On top of that, unique items retain their stats no matter what level you are.


Anyway, arbitrarily choosing static levels for dungeons and content would only serve to make the game a straight line based on what the creator decides is the best order of operation. I'm not a fan.

I just had to reply to this, reason why i registrated.

Longevity in gaming nowadays means diversion and different outcomes when it ten years ago meant beating your highscore.
I love this, perhaps I wont install it because it wont suit my gamestyle (probably will) and as a Risk=Reward player I actually look forward to this mod for my second playthough.

If the developers didn't mean for this, they deffinately wouldn't have the mod support they have. They want the community to create the longevity. The actual original gameplay is 50% of what The Elder Scrolls is about, the rest is player created content. And maaaaan, there are alot. I mean I read a thread not long ago about creating the perfect Oblivion setting for graphics, gameplay and contentwise it would only take two hours for experienced mod-installers.

I understand your point of view, there's a reason for scaling and in Oblivion / Skyrim it's can be called simulated sandboxing, it's not really sandboxing the game just adjusts itself to make you believe it is. And this deffinately aren't a discussion thread in my opinion.

I want to encourage the OT to continue this project. Make it happen dude!

Just wanted to say that if I had a gaming PC I would fully support this.

I am totally with you on this,as much as im really liking the game,ive got to a point that i dont bother opening 90% of chest because i know it will just be crap,and i have found the staff that the other guy was on about and there are bows and swords that are unique BUT it will only be any use for 1-3 lvls then its chuck it time.You never get that FOOK yeh feeling when you find loot.Im getting a bit jaded at going down some dungeons because i feel the end reward wont match the effort.One other off topic is it me or is the game like 98% Caves i want some proper dungeon crawling but hay great game that could be so much better with a little more effort.

So you are telling me you have never found a generic magic item like "Orcish Dagger of Flames" or any other "X of Y" item?

Precisely, that's the problem. If you enter the 20-30 dungeon at level 20, it will be adjusted to someone at level 20. If you enter it at level 30 it will be adjusted to someone at level 30. How does the game do that? It does it by placing items that scale between these levels depending on when you enter the dungeon. You are misreading what I mean by "scaled item". I don't mean that an Elven dagger you pick up will have different stats depending on which level you pick it up at, I mean that if you had entered the dungeon at another level it might have been an Orcish or a Dwemer dagger laying there instead; whichever the game feels is closer to your level. This makes sure that the game keeps you on a certain upgrade path, like iron to steel, steel to Orcish and so on. It is not just unrealistic but also extremely unrewarding and not at all immersive. It makes it feel like the world is revolving around you rather than you being a part of the world.

That doesn't matter as there are way too few items that are unique, and way too many items that are described as legendary are handed out through quests that scale too widely and allow you to get hold of artefacts even before level 20; and even then, most of them are completely useless.

So instead you are a fan of the game choosing that straight line for you with generic randomised items and enemies? The so called freedom you say you'd be robbed of here, is simply Bethesda's attempt at making the game more casual by handing you the dungeons and enemies the game feels should give you just the right amount of challenge. As with 99% of the discussions I've had with others in this thread, you stare yourself blind on the difficulty-scaling aspect of level scaling and ignore the un-immersive and unrealistic aspects of it. I take it you have never played Morrowind? Because if you had, you would have experienced the joy of finding an artefact that becomes your pride and joy and most used tool for tens of levels ahead, only made possible by the fact that the game doesn't try to hide content from the player only because it has decided that the player isn't ready.

If you were to do static gaming, you would have to slow the leveling down to below snail pace levels. Otherwise 90% of the game would be extremely boring after a very short time.

I just don't think static fits in an Elder Scrolls game. It works for final fantasy or Neverwinter Nights where there is a linear path, but for Elder Scrolls, it just wouldn't work right. I think it's pretty obvious why that is true.


I find the following to be pure madness:


I have played Morrowind to death. You have just generally gotten WAY to defensive about your idea. I don't like the idea. And I have brought forward solid reasons why I and other might feel that way.

I say go for it if you want to, but in the end, I think what they've accomplished with the leveling system this time around far exceeds previous iterations in the series. I really don't see a huge difference between a cave being level 20-30 and a cave being level 25 to be honest. Hand placed items also take away from being able to get a different experience every time you play. I'm just not a fan of the idea.


Edit: How many hours have you played, anyway?

Well, obviously you think that quote is pure madness since you apparently ignored everything I said in there. Especially the part about level-scaling being more than just a difficulty adjuster, since you just continue in the same pattern of thinking as your last post.
And about being "overly defensive", what do you expect me to say? You come in to my WIP thread and say that my mod is a bad idea, and you expect me to shower you with roses? If you chide my ideas I will obviously reply. I don't remember insulting you; I have just stated my opinions. If you want to defend level scaling you can go to the "Level scaling mod" thread which is a discussion thread.

And for the record I must have played Skyrim for 35-40 hours by now. Everything is great except for the level scaling which I have so far experienced as keeping me on a rail in terms of item-progression; hence this mod idea.

A complete removal of scaling would... svck.

You would have to do it one of two ways. One, items and monsters would have to be kept around the same level near eachother. If you have a static dungeon, with level 5 monsters in it, but then throw a Daedric greatsword into it you will have a level 2 player with a Daedric greatsword and then that player will never upgrade or have any desire to upgrade their weapon at that point. Morrowind had a few problems because of this. If you knew where to get the best/weapons armor, you could go there early on, get those items and then never use anything else. Defeats the purpose of item variety. Static leveling of monsters means not only is everything always the same for everybody, but if you have dungeons and areas containing static level enemies the player will have no choice but to be railroaded through those areas. If Whiterun Hold is level 0-10 and Farkeath is 11-20 players can only reasonably do those areas in that order.