Such is obvious from the features list, here are the arguments towards it:

PvP is restricted to as PvP, you are unable to force anyone into PvP. This is a feature that does not equal the TES IP, but represents the current business model favored in MMORPG's. Not to mention this eliminates the possibility of being assaulted by a PC member of the Dark Brotherhood / Moraq Tong, a feature many TES fans would have endorsed. If PvP is out of the question, so is thievery, and thus, even thieves guild will be null when in regards of PC characters.

3 way faction is a feature of DAOC, along with RvRvR being hidden behind "FvFvF", and a lot of these factions make no real sense lore-wise.

The gameplay (combatwise) is to represent a traditional MMO with "something new" versus the "first-person-sworder" that exists in TES games.


Now, this is complete bull and excuse. If you'd tell this to the engineers behind SOE's new MMO engine "Forge Light". They would laugh at your face. Currently Forge Light is used in an FPS game called "Planetside 2". Which currently supports hundreds of players simultaneously, whilst has real projectile physics (no hitscans), it has seperate hitboxes for all characters / vehicles. Forge Light will be used for Everquest 3, and we are yet to see how this " PvP focused" version of EQ will turn out, perhaps we'll see something TES:O combat should be about, a continuance to the series. P.S Turn-based fundamentals are not part of critical design, they are design barriers that used to exist thanks to the technology not allowing to perform better.


Traditional MMORPG designs instead of favoring the TES IP, again. In TES, you could level up with non-combat professions, such as speech craft, theft, crafting (Alchemy / enchanting etc), or just purely skills such as acrobatics and athletics. Now, you are supposed to do the traditional MMORPG "grind" to level up.

The interesting part about PvE is the fact that it features a storyline, which however sounds rather boring in comparison to other TES versions. Your soul has been stolen, really? Also how will it function that everyone in the game will be the hero, it can be argued that it will destroy the immersion.


I could go on forever, but I believe these will cover the keypoints.


TL;DR The game should be a sequel to TES franchise, instead of being a DAOC endorsed by DAOC fans and traditional MMORPG players, whilst pissing off the entire TES fanbase.

Agree with everything. I was saying the same thing that they are making a game for mmorpg players and not for TES players... Only argument that "explained" why are they doing this and making TESO a "modern mmo" is that TES players are just a tiny fraction of potential subscribers. 10 million people are not a tiny fraction! I can't have fun playing games where you click more than you think with your head( related to the mmo combat system click click click one button then click another one, evade, resume clicking and click click click-----> you get the point).

I like hardcoe games that don't let you make much mistakes( example in most mmos you just respawn in battlegrounds and continue fighting with the same gear you were wearing when you died. So you don't loose anything when you die and you don't get anything except XP when you kill... I'd like to be able to loot players and take their expensive stuff. That would make people use expensive equipment just in special occasions( defending crucial strategic keep etc.) and make them think twice about roaming around in ebony armour...

Thats a dull thing if you won't be able to level up in theft, speechcraft and crafting... If they really want to make something interesting they should allow skilled crafters( blacksmiths, alchemists etc) to become valueable for their faction or guild.

I will give the game a chance but I probably won't play it for long if there will be too many "modern mmo" features...

I would say something, but I feel it's best I stay quiet.

Or, well, maybe not... Let's just throw this fact here: World of Warcraft, another example of a franchise going MMO, -never- adhered to the RTS standards that were present in the earlier games. They "copied" a lot of features from MMOGs preceding it, and look what happened! It became the most popular MMOG of the start of the century.

And don't forget that if you could aim your weapon, a bow-user would -always- be at a disadvantage against a person with major lagg. He would appear to be where you aim, but next you know he's suddenly warped to your place and assaulted you from behind while you were releasing arrow at thin air. What's the fun in that? Every person with ambitions for competing would strive to have as laggy gameplay as possible, to be at the advantage, which would lead to the game looking more like a warp-fest than a proper game.
And as a person who has played WoW in battlegrounds and arenas, I can tell such a "warp-lagg" brings problems not only to the person with it, but also against those against that person, as when you stand right next to his in-game model, the screen says: "You are out of range." "You need to be facing your target."

So which would you prefer? That aforementioned real-time aiming system with laggy opponents, or a system that allows you to target your enemy and attack him. It effectively prevents the aforementioned lagg issue, does it not? Or, well, looking at WoW, it does not prevent it, just adds a lot of "softness" to it, to make it bearable.

When the developers talk about lagg, they don't talk about the game server lagg, I'd say. They talk about the lagg of the computers with worse end computer specs and Internet, which in the end matters the most. You can't expect everyone to have a high-end computer with excellent Internet, can you?

That's just my two cents about the subject. Feel free to approve or disagree. But to me, that's quite close to the actual truth to their decision concerning that.
I cannot say anything about the experience system. I've yet to learn more about it.

Then they should put TESO aside for now and launch it in 10 years when technical issues should not be a problem to players and make an awesome game.

Supercomputers are going personal and in 10 years everyone should have Tesla super PC equivalent or maybe better. Just by the way if someone doesn't know, Tesla super PC is in development and it will cost under 10k dollars http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8FUmS1h-5U. In 10 years equivalent of this kind of computer should be available to everyone for much smaller price.

That's rather utopistic, don't you think?
I mean, in the 20th century people thought the mankind of 21th century would have managed to solve all the problems plaguing the world, and the technology would allow us floating cars, ion showers, steel buildings and -roads, and air would be manufactured through machines rather than the nature. Well, look what happened, mm?

Unless they find a cheap way to manufacture a computer like the one you linked, the price will remain the same through the ages - after all, the materials are what elevate the cost to such heights, plus the additional cost to bring money to the builders' own needs.
I mean, you surely don't expect to be able to buy a super computer for less than $800, with all the exotic, rare and hard-to-create parts and materials that cost a lot themselves? The lower the production cost, the lower the price. At least usually.

I wasn't aware that I was pissed off...

Anyway, I think I recall them saying that speech craft would be in the game, but I'm not quite sure. And if you want all the features of the previous ES games, then it'd be a Skyrim clone or Oblivion clone, or whatever you want to call it. And apparently clones are exactly well liked in today's market, so how about they continue what they're doing and make a mix of DAoC and ES? Sounds good to me.

Ofcourse it is utopistic. I bought my computer for about 1300€ ( monitor was 300 so the computer itself costed about 1000) about 5 years ago and it's not a bad computer but it is crap compared with present day computers that cost the same price... cheap i7( I mean cheap in the future) computer with 16 gigs of ram and optic internet infrastructure( I'm not concerned about computers optic internet is my concern) is enough to play every present game on max even in multiplayer...

If they put those rare parts in mass production they will be cheaper because they are no longer rare. It is the same thing for materials.

So, you think gold and silicon can be simply made more common? Not to forget the amount of other important materials used for building electronic machinery.

I bought this current computer for 1200-or-so euros last March, and to me, it works rather well. Very minor if any lagg. Actually, I find the capabilities of this computer often surpassing that of a lot of other computers around.
But it's just not the computer that matters, remember. It's also the Internet connection speed; Some people have high-end computers with bad Internet connection, or vice versa. The better results are gained if the computer itself is laggy and the connection is good, as that way your character will only move in phases instead of warping around, like happens when the connection is bad.
Basically, with a bad connection, your computer registers the movement of your character, and it takes a while to send the data to the server, which doesn't take into account that you've moved at all in that while. It just places you in a position your own computer shows you at, with no visible movement from the external viewers' side if the position is different than in the last "data pack" sent from your computer.

The best results are gained if both connection and computer are good, where you can benefit from both a good FPS and good and working Internet connection. That will not be the case for all, do note. But it's enough that the Internet is good; the computer capabilities are secondary and mostly just for the enjoyment of you, as the player, if you prefer high-end graphics; as long as you can send enough data packs to keep the server updated with your position, all's well and the game is balanced.

Gold and silicon are not the only materials that make computers( they are probably the most expensive, but I think that silicon and gold in computers are measured in grams and how much is 1 gram of gold on the market, in my country it is I don't know 40 euros a gram maybe in jewelry shop, this is just for material not for the 5 gram neckless). You forget about technology advances how can I7 computer cost 1500€ and tesla super computer 7000€( tesla will be 10 if not 100 times faster than I7 computer).

Regarding the internet connection I said that it is my no.1 concern----->optic internet infrastructure. I don't have it in my neighbourhood but it is expanding. In 10-15 years I'm 100% sure that everyone in Europe will have it...

I think we went too much off topic Tagorlak

I'm so glad I read this post. I'm now aware that I'm either

1. Not an actual TES fan, or

2. Pissed off somehow.

I don't get all these threads that basically say:
"Make it the way I want it or don't make it."

To them, I usually say:
"Go buy the game you actually want, leave mine alone, and feel free to go away."



Dude, simple fact:
There will never, ever be a day where *everyone* has a marvelous internet connection and a high-powered computer.
Players play MMOs from all over the world. Even in the most developed countries, there are always people that will have lousy set ups. Dorms? Their internet connections are awful. You just want to ignore every college student in North america that has a bad internet connection so you can have your Skyrim Online?

No. Just hush.

As I said, you're talking about an utopistic scenario that will most likely not be fulfilled.
Technology advances aren't that drastic, really. The technology might be improving, yes, but machines using the improved technology don't just magically lose their value over time, unless they are worn out of use, or the sales are bad. Look at PS3, for example. Its high price turned a lot of potential buyers away a while back.
That does not mean it makes it fruitful to reduce the cost of the said "super computer".

And the thing is... Why would anyone pay for such huge sums of money just to have a super-computer like that, since people appear to be choking even with the "low" prices of $1000? Such a computer will only be bought by the most dedicated gamers and computer hobbyists and/or those who need them for complex computer calculations, like rendering a 3D movie, or just scientific calculations of global effects.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly, to be honest.

Well the guy that started this thread doesn't say: "Make it the way I want or don't make it". He says: "Make it the way you made it before and even better, not worse".


Supercomputer is maybe a utopistic scenario but you don't need supercomputer to run games... Supercomputer post was to show how technology advances and becomes available to ordinary people. Good PCs should soon become available to everyone( at least PCs good enough to run large and complex games). In a few years present high end computer will cost less and still be good for games...

To make it the way they made it before, it would be a single player game. You know, the way they did it before.

Not to mention, this isn't TES VI.

This is a spinoff, not the next installment. It's not even made by the same studio, so the "make it the way you did before" doesn't make sense, since ZOS hasn't ever made a game before. Ever.

We can't tell what will game look like when it comes out. But the name of the game is TESO. The name suggests that it will be TES (with both lore and gameplay detail). Ofcourse there are some things that can't be implemented in mmo from single player series but there are plenty that can. We'll see soon with the first game footage and beta which direction did the devs decided to take.

Hopefully, they'll make a revolution to the entire franchise in adding a lot of content and detail to mmo-s.

Considering PvP has never been in the TES IP, I don't believe you can make that conclusion. Having FFA unrestricted PvP would lead to a well-known behavior such as griefing and ganking. It's very detrimental to a game's community base, generally discourages newcomers from staying (Darkfall Online), and provides no "dynamic" or "immersive" PvP as popular belief may have it and only infurirates players.

If players were rational and lived by a set of rules in games, your type of PvP might be feasible. However, they are not as games are not real life and players will inevitably ruin them for their own personal gain. Darkfall Online, again, is a perfect example of what a "true" TES MMO would look like if it were taken online. It's essentially what unregulated radiant AI was in Oblivion: pure anarchy.

ZOS has already made it very clear that their PvE experience is supposed to emulate TES very closely. The Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild will likely have pve-oriented quest lines, just like the games, for players to see alone and see how their choices affect the world. Player bounty systems haven't been in AAA MMORPGs for a while and I certainly would not have expected their return with ESO.

PvP can only truly work and have meaning if there are factions involved. This is a necessary evil in order to produce massive battles of epic porportions. If you read http://www.facebook.com/#!/notes/the-elder-scrolls-online/introduction-to-the-lore-of-the-elder-scrolls-online-en/486381251371913 on their Facebook page, ZOS explains the alliances in-depth and why they make sense lore-wise.

Planetside 2 is a MMOFPS. It is not an MMORPG. Everquest Next likely won't be out anytime soon so it's silly to even suggest how it could look as no one knows. The only MMORPGs that take a first person approach that anyone probably knows are Darkfall Online, Mortal Online, and soon Embers of Caerus. Yes, it is possible to achieve this play-style. The problem is this kind of fighting is easily exploitable, produces bad player behavior ("bunny hopping"), and is bad in an MMORPG setting.

Being restricted to first person when hundreds of enemy players are surrounding you and not being able to see them is bad. Skyrim can get away with it as the PC only deals with a few enemies generally in front and never behind. MMORPGs are more unpredictable as players will be everywhere.

You should probably keep in mind that ESO isn't just being made for TES fans. It's also being made to appeal to the MMORPG crowd, and theme park MMORPGs are the only games out there that have the capacity to appeal to a huge audience. Sandboxes just don't. A PvP-oriented Sandbox would be even less attractive if players could be killed by other players at any time and many would rather just stick to the single player experience.

Your stance on the story is purely subjective. In all honesty, storytelling has never been a strongpoint for BGS or the TES games, but they have improved over time. I'm not expecting BioWare-quality storytelling, but it shouldn't be too difficult to be on par with what Skyrim did.

The truth of the matter is the reason this game isn't a Skyrim clone really comes down to a few specific points:

-Sandboxes are not as financially lucrative as Themepark MMORPGs.
-First person view has never been successful in MMORPGs and provides serious limitations to the player.
-While Skyrim may be popular as a single player game, many of those fans wouldn't even think twice about passing an online version due to anarchy with other players.
-Newcomers and many players don't like being forced into PvP as it typically discourages them and makes it hard to build a new community base.

In theory, a Skyrim MMORPG sounds like it could truly be amazing, if it were a simulation with other players involved. In reality, it would be an absolute disaster, unless the developers were to heavily regulate what players could or could not do, which is what Themeparks generally are. ZOS wants to appeal to as many ESO and MMORPG fans as much as possible and this is the only rational approach to this goal. Make PvE as similar to TES as possible and make PvP as similar to DAoC as possible. Don't let the two overlap and allow players to choose what they want to participate in.

Some people; even dedicated TES fans; are simply going to have to accept that TESO is not the game for them and move on. You are not going to get TES VI online. ZOS is producing TESO and it is obvious that some will hate it. Fair enough since no game can please everyone but if ZOS did make TESO the way the OP desires it is also true that many people would hate it. In order for TESO to be economically viable ZOS has to achieve a happy middle ground and attract many non-rabid TES fans in order to have any chance of success. I think it goes too far to denounce a game even before one has played it. I would say give it a try in open beta with the expectation that it is not your ideal mmo and if you don't like it don't buy it and you are out nothing. You game some seem to want will never be made.

Answers in bold.And those who say "the way I want it to be." Nope, I only exaggerated some points, that is true, but the problem is TESO won't be anything innovative, new or true to TES franchise (Take Gothic, the newest gothic was so horrible it flopped). It doesn't matter if the creators aren't Beth, its a TES game, and will be judged as one. Needless to say, the brand value will sink down the drain.

No one expects from ZOS to make TES VI online. So far I like most of the features that I've read in the FAQ. I'd like to see a detailed gameplay in every aspect of the game( quests, market, crafting, player and guild housing at least in cyrodill for guild forts and castles which would be really awesome since cyrodill is quite big, pvp options other than cyrodill warzone like arena or border cities, lootable equipment from killed foes, mining, farming, alchemy). Those things can be implemented in mmo with no problem and will give players more options what to do ingame. Ofcourse guild castles would be constructed on predetermind plots of land to prevent them from being spammed and ofcourse very expensive... So I would be satisfied with this, even with limited pvp.



Edit: I agree with Nehemias reply to redguard king.

Pvp everywhere can be solved with a bounty system as I and many others have said before, even on this forums. Ofcourse there should be high security areas like cities where guards would intervene in any pvp and arrest the guy that started it. If someone kills a member of his own faction( unless he killed a member of another guild that is in war with his own) then he gets arrested when he get near the city or any other place where are somekinda police guardsmen and he looses his gear and some his money( depending on how big is the bounty on his head). And if he doesn't have any or not enough gear and money to pay for the bounty fee with him at the moment of arrest then he "goes" to jail which means he looses skillpoints and a hell a lot of them(depending on how big is the bounty on his head). Bandit profession would be a hardcoe profession in an mmo and it would make other players cooperate more in protecting their I don't know merchants and even themselves when going from a point A to point B. And ofcourse I would make a teleportation system for players but not for caravans with a lot of cargo( that will limit the number of players being ganked and force large guilds to protect their caravans when going to sell goods in the trade center.

...And if something isn't included in launch, we can almost count on that it shall be released in a patch or an expansion at a later point of time! It's a win-win situation, of sorts.

At least I, personally, am interested in seeing how ZOS develops the game after the launch. Who knows what nice gimmicks and major gameplay features they might implement?

Thats what I think exactly. They need to start with something to make it better. I also count on expansions and patches to make this a really awesome game. I like when the game has a lot of features and options.

I find that just haveing ANY pvp goes against the ES theme. Since in all ES games there has NEVER been any form of pvp.

You just have assassinated, robbed, plundered, killed people for fun, witnessed civil wars, kicked the [censored] out of annoying people or just went rampage in town just because you were bored. Now, turn that into an online game? It isn't player versus mudcrabs, its the player versus other people, in online environment, other players.

There isn't Freedom that is the most rejoiced feature of TES series, and that freedom has consequences in TES, its just that you can "skip hours" in single player game, now, imagine being jailed from theft and being unable to skip the time, just 1 lock pick with a chance of escape.

Wow... thanks! That's a paradigm shift I never actually thought of!

That is such a good point! The Warcraft franchise already had 3 games and three expansions before WoW came into existence... and that had absolutely NO semblance to the RTS gameplay - just the art style and that's it.

Now, mind you that ES series and ESO share very similar gameplay styles... so I can understand the counter argument (and, quite frankly, Skyrim's entire leveling system is basically a lift from Ultima Online, the grandfather of ALL MMORPGs).

But yeah... things worked out fine for WoW, despite being rooted as an RTS series.

...there also wasn't any form of player cooperation either in an ES game. Does that mean there shouldn't be?

And, no, my character in Skyrim... she's pretty damn evil towards any person... even her own allies (unbeknownst to them).