The Ayleids made the White-Gold? : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:07 pm

"The Amulet of Kings" seems pretty biased to me:
In the first years of the First Era, a powerful race of Elves called the Ayleids, or the Heartland High Elves, ruled central Tamriel with an iron hand. The high and haughty Ayleids relied on their patrons, the treacherous Daedra Lords, to provide armies of daedra and dead spirits; with these fearless magical armies, the Ayleids preyed without mercy upon the young races of men, slaughtering or enslaving them at their whim.

But if the Empire should slacken in its dedication to the Nine Divines, or if the blood of Alessia's heirs should fail, then shall the barriers between Tamriel and the Daedric realms fall, and Daedra-worshippers might summon lesser Daedra and undead spirits to trouble the races of men.
Especially due to the fact that the line has been broken several times.

Wasn't there a source that says Lorkhan created the Amulet? I can't find it...

I don't know about Lorkhan, but I do believe the Ayleids were known to be a proud race, and many of the Daedra are typically treacherous.

But one of the things is that while the King who resided in White-Gold worshipped Meridia, the Amulet's gems represent the Eight.

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:21 pm

Its not like you've given evidence to the contrary or even disproved the books.

Edit: Yes, I know that the Stone is the Amulet, but I think that the tower's original powers stemmed from its location, and I don't think that the Divine Barriers were what the Daedra-worshipping Ayleids had in mind.

I don't need to give evidence, since I'm right, and educating you isn't high on my list.

The Tower's original powers stem from it being a Tower. It's location is the only thing that distinguishes it from the other elf towers. There are no "barriers" erected specifically to keep daedra out. That's like saying that our atmosphere is a meteor-incinerating device.

The eight gems represent the eight gift-limbs of the Aurbis, and it was a significant number long before Alessia made up a politically convenient religion.

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:24 pm

But if the Empire should slacken in its dedication to the Nine Divines, or if the blood of Alessia's heirs should fail, then shall the barriers between Tamriel and the Daedric realms fall, and Daedra-worshippers might summon lesser Daedra and undead spirits to trouble the races of men.

The line has been broken several times....This discredits part of the book already. Seems like a biased book to me.

Wasn't there a source that says Lorkhan created the Amulet? I can't find it...

It has some merits, but not the whole story.

Why don't you do a search on MK's post history. Clue: you can find the revelation at the end.

Personally, I don't understand this business. Chim-el Adabal, old covenants.

Why do I keep staring at the word "sinew"?

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:56 pm

Nu-Hatta says otherwise:

"To dismiss this mythitecture as being a mockery of the Aurbis is to ignore an important point: this same "jest" gave White-Gold Tower a power over creatia unalike any on this plane(t)."

I'd say having "a power over creatia unalike any on this planet" is pretty significant...

It depends what they're in comparison to. Even so, Nu-Hatta (if you accept him as a source) says the tower is a godhood rail gun. That doesn't translate well into other types of power, but it is something they seem to have a monopoly over. Except for the Tribunal.

The amulet wasn't created by Akatosh.

Those are fifty word books from Oblivion.

They're wrong.

It's fine if your knowledge of lore has random, large gaps, so does everyone's, but don't try to argue based on the red-herrings in the game. Yes, you used a url tag. I still win.

I'm not sure you're winning.

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:36 am

I don't need to give evidence, since I'm right, and educating you isn't high on my list.

The Tower's original powers stem from it being a Tower. It's location is the only thing that distinguishes it from the other elf towers. There are no "barriers" erected specifically to keep daedra out. That's like saying that our atmosphere is a meteor-incinerating device.

The eight gems represent the eight gift-limbs of the Aurbis, and it was a significant number long before Alessia made up a politically convenient religion.

For it to be powerful then, it would have had to have been the last tower built. When were all the towers built?

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:22 pm

I don't need to give evidence, since I'm right, and educating you isn't high on my list.

The Tower's original powers stem from it being a Tower. It's location is the only thing that distinguishes it from the other elf towers. There are no "barriers" erected specifically to keep daedra out. That's like saying that our atmosphere is a meteor-incinerating device.

The eight gems represent the eight gift-limbs of the Aurbis, and it was a significant number long before Alessia made up a politically convenient religion.

Apparently disproving me also isn't high on your list. And claiming to be right without something to back it up is somewhat baseless.

I knew that the tower's powers were technically because its a tower, I just figured that was a bit self-evident.

As for barriers, they get referenced throughout Oblivion. They even are mentioned in the http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/nu-hatta_nu-mantia.shtml.

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:12 pm

For it to be powerful then, it would have had to have been the last tower built. When were all the towers built?

We only have educated guesses as to the identity of most of them, and no clue at all if you don't accept Nu-Hatta. He obviously knows, so we're taking his word for it.

It would only have to be built last if being a hub was the Ayleids' intention.

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:26 pm

We only have educated guesses as to the identity of most of them, and no clue at all if you don't accept Nu-Hatta. He obviously knows, so we're taking his word for it.

It would only have to be built last if being a hub was the Ayleids' intention.

If it was their intention, wouldn't they have arranged the eight towers around the middle tower in a circle? And is the lighthouse new or just overlooked?

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:23 pm

If it was their intention, wouldn't they have arranged the eight towers around the middle tower in a circle? And is the lighthouse new or just overlooked?

It's the arrangement of Towers (capital 't') that is the main part. The IC's shape may just be Oblivion's design team being cute. I don't think there are even eight walls. A wheel within a wheel within a wheel...

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:41 pm

The Amulet of Kings was given to Alessia by Akatosh; in the same way that God gave the victory to whichever side won a battle. Alessia took White-Gold Tower and claimed the Chim el-Adabal as hers. Shezarr's favor gave her that victory. Later, Shezarr would be replaced by Akatosh in the texts.

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:39 pm

If the entire city was created by the Ayleids, then did they make the Tiber Septim hotel?

I'm just being pedantic really.

It would have been much nicer to see the mundane, mannish Imperial City built around the mythic, glowing Ayleid elven tower.

Mod it I cry.

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:15 am

If the entire city was created by the Ayleids, then did they make the Tiber Septim hotel?

I'm just being pedantic really.

It would have been much nicer to see the mundane, mannish Imperial City built around the mythic, glowing Ayleid elven tower.

Mod it I cry.

The tower and basic structure was built by Ayleids,and the stores and houses and stuff was added on by the Imperials.

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:09 am

If the entire city was created by the Ayleids, then did they make the Tiber Septim hotel?

Yes. It wasn't a hotel at the time, and it wasn't called after Tiber Septim.

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:18 pm

I find a whole city built by a previous race and then inhabited by another one Boring And Therefore Wrong. Me likez eight islands, rice fields and mixed architecture from all Eras.

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:04 pm

I find a whole city built by a previous race and then inhabited by another one Boring And Therefore Wrong. Me likez eight islands, rice fields and mixed architecture from all Eras.

That's probably basically what happened.

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:02 pm

The Amulet of Kings was given to Alessia by Akatosh; in the same way that God gave the victory to whichever side won a battle. Alessia took White-Gold Tower and claimed the Chim el-Adabal as hers. Shezarr's favor gave her that victory. Later, Shezarr would be replaced by Akatosh in the texts.

But when the Amulet was shattered, the Avatar of Akatosh appeared.

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:32 am

that last effect is probably directly descended from the Marukhati's tamprings. They basically broke appart the whole mythical world to put it back together into a shape more to their liking. Tying the amulet to a different power (or more acurately to a new declination of the previous power) isn't much of a problem while doing that.

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:54 pm

that last effect is probably directly descended from the Marukhati's tamprings. They basically broke appart the whole mythical world to put it back together into a shape more to their liking. Tying the amulet to a different power (or more acurately to a new declination of the previous power) isn't much of a problem while doing that.

But given that Shezarr was being mantled by Pelinal at the time, I don't think that he was the one who did it. I think it simply was Akatosh.

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:06 am

What if Pelinal gave Alessia the Amulet? Which god would it be then?

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:06 pm

What if Pelinal gave Alessia the Amulet? Which god would it be then?

But if he had come from the future, then it was probably given to him by Akatosh (after all, the Eight had given him his anti-Umaril armor). So it could be both of them. If it was Pelinal that gave it.

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:35 am

But if he had come from the future, then it was probably given to him by Akatosh (after all, the Eight had given him his anti-Umaril armor). So it could be both of them. If it was Pelinal that gave it.

Some sources say Lorkhan, some say Akatosh. Pelinal is both. Although when he is in a lucid state he exhibits the characteristics of Shezzar, rather than Akatosh. Or did Akatosh just rewrite history as it happened and break himself, after a fashion?

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:48 pm

The Ayleids made the White-Gold tower, which can be seen from all across the Imperial City... yet, did they make the Imperial City too?

The architecture for the Tower, and the City are exactly the same. If the Ayleids made the tower, then you'd at least half-expect the Elder Council chamber to look like a giant Ayleid tomb, complete with all those glowing crystals.

Are we supposed to believe that because there are a few dragons painted around that it's all Imperial?

To say the IC was built atop the Ayleid ruins is not entirely true. It would seem that the Imperial simply rennovated the ancient city of Nibenay and used existing structures where possible. Either that, or they had rock hauled in that matched the rest of the city, and emulated Ayleid architecture for aesthetic value.

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:47 am

To say the IC was built atop the Ayleid ruins is not entirely true. It would seem that the Imperial simply rennovated the ancient city of Nibenay and used existing structures where possible. Either that, or they had rock hauled in that matched the rest of the city, and emulated Ayleid architecture for aesthetic value.

Then again, no other Ayleid architecture looks a thing like the Imperial City in style or design. Elves don't build crenelations.

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:30 am

But when the Amulet was shattered, the Avatar of Akatosh appeared.

The avatar of Shezarr/Akatosh, formed by the souls of the human emperors and empresses since the Covenant turned the Amulet of Kings into a sort of soulgem.

» Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:15 pm

The avatar of Shezarr/Akatosh, formed by the souls of the human emperors and empresses since the Covenant turned the Amulet of Kings into a sort of soulgem.

Or perhaps the Amulet contained the blood of Akatosh, and when Martin shattered it, he turned into the Avatar of Akatosh. Last time I checked, however, a dragon typically signifies Akatosh.