Very well then good sir, I bid you a good day.

So, you say the BoS kills innocent people? During the scourge the Brotherhood of Steel saved many pure humans and gave them better quality of living (although you will say we kidnapped children and forced them into BoS ways. Pfft! ).

You Enclave personnel continue to chat BS about how the writing has allowed individuals to destroy Enclave structures (oil rig incident, Adams Air Force Base), but surely that just shows how weakly prepared the Enclave is.

A hallway at Adams Air Force Base...

Enclave Soldier 1: I got a new Plasma Rifle wanna come see it in my quarters?
Enclave Soldier 2: But we are suppose to be guarding this hall way?
Enclave Soldier 1: Come on, we will only be a few minutes what could happen?
Enclave Soldier 2: Okay, let's hurry then.

A few minutes pass, the alarm sounds one of the soldiers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE07PSV2hgc

The Scourge is merely an arguement to people whom believe the BoS to be as pure as snow, it's for people who say that the Enclave kill indiscriminately therefore they must be evil. Oh and killing innocent people is okay if the outcome is good, where have I heard that before...

I point out The Scourge because it shows the hypocracy of you people, people who move their moral line about when it seems to suit them.



Yeah, when an Oil Tanker docks into an Oil Rig someone should notice, there should have been something somewhere in the Rig saying "Friendly IFF detected" seeing as how the main reason for using the tanker was that automated guns wouldn't anhilate it; someone on the Rig should have seen it coming.

The Enclave had Vertibirds coming in from behind Prime, right at the very start of Take it Back no less like literally the second you leave the Citadel, and they either fly past it or hovwer really slowly in front of it and get shot, bad writing; they are supposed to be the US Army and Vertibirds, even in the vanilla game, are shown to use mini nukes. If Prime had been destroyed then the BoS wouldn't have even broken past the first forcefield baracade, and I've already pointed out how easily Prime could have been destroyed.

And when the individual in question is a PC God Character then of course they will die, in fact in Fallout 2 you don't have to kill a single one, how many do you kill in F3, well over 50 at the least. Seriously, bringing the PC into it is stupid, a guy who can survive explosions & sustained fire from popping an infinate number of stimpaks.

And Adams Airforce Base was after they had been all but destroyed and had no communications systems so yeah, of course they would be [censored]

It is not bad writing but just bad ENCLAVE FLIGHT PATTERNS

you continue torant about bad writing and how BoS kill innocent humans. The Enclave kill anything that moves good or bad, great way to rebuild humanity, if all that remain are Enclave then the humans of the new worlds will be tricked/brain washed into living the way of the Enclave. so what if they are US military they obviously are not from the same era where military flight training was very/any good.

Also, the Enclave are just bad work men/women, they have all the tools but still can't handle BoS elites.

Your argument is weak and a little dated. Without Prime the BoS would have had a completely alternative strategy to regain the purifier.

No it isn't, the US ARMY should have better tactics than http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDZlNgD8LR8,4:06 - 4:20. If I can point out where the Enclave fighting was stupid then people whom are supposed to be trained soldiers should see that it isn't very tactical to hover in front of Liberty Prime's face constantly, or stand in his way with pathetic laser rifles. Again, they come in from behind and have a perfectly good chance to just unload missiles and nukes into him but do not, it does not take a genius to figure out that shooting the enemy when it can't shoot back = good.

Again, your missing the point. The Scourge is for people whom think that the BoS are good, the fact that you didn't mention it either means that you agree or that you couldn't think of something to say in the ten minutes you spent writing this and I am going to assume the first; therefore, it doesn't apply to you. If you actaully do think that the BoS were fully justified in the Pitt then don't come the moral compass on me, the BoS killed innocent people and you try to justify it with goodness, the exact same as what I do; scale is irrelevant in comparison with comprimise of ideals.

The Enclave killing everyone would be beneficial, a small, managable, safe, educated, motivated, healthy community; oh and "living the ways of the Enclave", you mean democracy of course, truely the base of all evil societies. An authoriatarian society built around the fear and hatred of mutants becomes obselete after all of the hate figures are dead.

Without Prime the BoS wouldn't have stood a chance, the Enclave have artillery, Vertibirds, an orbital satilite, a deadly virus & better equipment. For example on the AAFB runway, all of the BoS get killed by the Enclave. The BoS win because of the Player Character and Prime, once those are gone they cannot win.

EDIT: Say in Broken Steel you put the virus in, not a single BoS is in the hospital, the people with all of the water never took a single sip araparently, I CALL [censored].

Your arguement is based on nothing, "Living the ways of the Enclave" was more than ample to prove that to me. Of course, killing and experimenting, those are the Enclave ways! Except that everyone is dead, please think your agruements through next time instead of just spouting, "Evil = bad at everything." The BoS society revolves around soldiers and people who fix/improve soldier's stuff, truely the blueprint of the future.

You skip over points you can't justify, call it "dated" :shrug: and don't know the subject matter; even the BoS say that the Enclave is superior in everyway, but then they fix the [censored] weapon that the combined might of the pre-war US Army, RobCo and General Atomics couldn't do before the war, you know, when roads to bring in all of the complicated equipment and parts existed and such.

They would have found and alternate stratergy, except it would involve them running in a forcefield and then artilery and Vertibird bombardments.

Enclave crushed bos at adams. The only reason they lost was because of the lone wanderer. They killed every bos man on the runway in minutes.

Used to be BoS now Enclave after seeing them in Hidden Valley....

Here's the thing, the scourge was a necessary evil if you can even call it something evil in the first place. You dont walk past a major slaving town like the Pitt where they're working men, women, and children to death without doing something. That in itself would be evil. The scourge was simply the best course of action, were there innocent people killed? Im sure there were but thats war, the majority of the casulties were either trogs or raiders. Had they just gone in a killed everything that moved that would have been a evil act, but they didnt, they rescued the non mutated children and only shot those who put up resistance. Even the people who live in the Pitt now say as bad it is they couldn't even imagine how bad it was before the Brotherhood came through.

Enclave=Fascists

End of story.

So superior people are morally obligated to help others? That's more morality and ethics and not really the place here, I would disagree.

Regardless, the point is that there are people who call the Enclave bad for the same reasons yet support the BoS, forgetting the Scourge. It is an example of "The Ends Justify the Means" which so many claim to desest; and it wasn't a slaver town, it was just lawless in general. AGAIN, it is aimed at those people who think that BoS are saints, which you have acknowledged that they are not.

I could argue that the Project was a necessary evil, which I do, but apparently there a limit on genocides and still having a good motive.

:facepalm: That is exactly what I am [censored] talking about, the BoS get a free pass on the Scourge because people see them doing good things and therefore they must be good, the Enclave are the ones being fought so who gives a [censored] about their motives and the ultimate culmination of their plan right?

Oh and they aren't fascists.

Actually your right, it wasn't a slaver town my bad.

And I do also think that yeah the stong have a obligation to protect the weak to an extent but again your right, this isn't the place to have that conversation.

If the Enclaves goal was to only wipe out mutated animals and maybe even super mutants then I could get behind it and understand the reasoning they have, but when it comes to wiping out humans and "normal" ghouls who used to be human, alot of which were alive even before the war, thats where it crosses the line between a "necessary evil" and just plain evil.


Im never going to accept the Enclaves reasoning in all of this just as you'll never accept the Brotherhoods reasoning, but hey at least we can have a half way civil conversation about it. Pretty rare thing to find on the internet these days if you asked me.

Damn right it is, I have no problem with disagreements old sport, just ignorance; it just agravates the [censored] out of me when people say, "Enclave=Evil/Fascists etc." Therefore no redeeming qualities what-so-ever.

Blame it on Fallout 3 sticking them in "black devil armor" and making them hostile no matter what, thats all people new to the series really know. Just like the only Brotherhood they know are the white nights, while I love what Lyons has done with the Brotherhood on the east they could have done a better job of including the actual history of the two major factions.

The Pitt before the Scourge was a hell-hole occupied by Raiders, cannibals, and worse. Even Ashur's bitterest enemies freely concede the BoS did the world a favor by wiping the various gangs out. Lyons and his men didn't kill everyone, either...there were plenty of people left for Ashur to rally when he founded what is now the Pitt. I see the Enclave supporter's use of the Scourge as an attempt to make the BoS morally equivalent to the Enclave as a sign of how weak thier argument really is. The Scourge was a military operation against gangs of armed criminals......how is the Vault 13 Raid, or Richardson or Eden's FEV plot, or even Autumn's plot to erect a military dictatorship based on control of the Purifier morally equivalent to that?



It would be beneficial to the Enclave, for sure. Everybody else, not so much. And the Enclave is a authoritarian society built around fear and hatred of mutants.....once the FEV did it's work, the Enclave's ruling class would find new things to fear and hate lest they lose the emergency powers they base thier right to rule on.

Hmm no. I think you misunderstand. We are not trying to level the playing field between the Enclave and the Brotherhood, we are not trying to say that in a objective view, the Enclave and the Brotherhood are morally equivalent. Its true that, technically the Brotherhood are much more (shall I say) "benign" than the Enclave, that is without a doubt. However, as I have explained before, bringing up the scourge and pointing out the Brotherhood's actions are only meant to show that the Brotherhood is not as good as some people seem to think. They are capable of evil deeds, the scourge (as you argue) ultimately turned out to be a good thing, but not everyone in the Pitt was a rapist or a criminal, there indeed was innocent women and children in the Pitt, and the Brotherhood massacre many of them. In that case the argument of "the ends justify the means" comes into play, which is the same argument we use for the Enclave.

The CWBOS shoot ghouls indescrimnately and apparently with pleasure, does that sound like a "good" faction to you? Certainly they are one of the best factions out there, but they are certainly not perfect, nor are they really "good". We are just kinda tired of Brotherhood supporters overlooking these bad points in the Brotherhood's history and saying "OUR faction can do no wrong unlike you Enclave jerks".

The entire poulation of the Pitt were not criminals, how is that even possible? It was just a very lawless and dangerous town, why are people failing to grasp the point of this. Let me try and rephrase it, killing any innocent people is not [b]morally[b] defensable. So read what has been said, do I have to hang a disclaimer on every post saying, "I do not think of the Enclave as good people"? I, said in what you quoted, that the The Scourge is for people whom thing that the BoS cannot do any wrong. So, like it or not, you are supporting a faction which took a complete detour from their planned route and swept through the town, even the one man they lost in the operation then formed a dictatorship.

Morallity has nothing to do with anything I have ever argued for:

Richardson's FEV plot would result in the creation of the society I described, please tell me how it is even possible for a society chiefly based on fear to survive when their is no one to fear, without covering your bases by saying "I'm sure they will find a way".

Whilst I think Autumn is a sack of [censored], his plan would greatly improve conditions, ask one of the scavengers in the D.C. sewers where he would live, in a forcefield compound with a few square meals and big guns keeping him safe or back in the sewer eating the Rad Roaches? Another example of critics who think that they can just spout some universally evil words and get away with not thinking of the full situation. "Military Dictatorships=Bad!" In the real world of course, but Fallout is a post-nuclear, lawless hellhole where any form of law is better than nothing, I simply think that the Enclave's law is better. But of course not, the Enclave are inherantly evil so everything that they do will spell DOOM for eevryone :laugh: because the BoS haven't just completely seized Project Purity, ran Doctor Li out and are doing a crap job of letting rookie Rivet City soldiers deliver water for them; the BoS are the Good Guys don't forget and everything must eventually improve, un-like those Enclave bastards, whatever society they would craft doesn't even bear thought they are that evil.



:facepalm:, the Enclave stops being the Enclave once they have won; they simply become the human race, the human race whom all live in saftey, are all educated, healthy and motivated with the tools to complete the job. Imagine the world that could have been 100 years post-Project, or 200.

They wouldn't lose any emergency powers, they have been having elections for decades. "Ruling class"? Erm... on the ENCLAVE everyone was exposed to the same propoganda, every believed in the same thing; talk to [censored] Richardson, the man is a patriot for Enclave ideals just as much as everyone else, he believes everything which has been drilled into him like everyone else; not some "secret-puppet master" or whatever. The Enclave "ruling class" are elected, as can be evidenced by Richardson's own private notes on the matter where he reminds himself to "Plug for election".

Let me fill you in, the BoS are a society of soldiers with three social classes, soldiers, people who fix soldiers stuff and people who make soldiers stuff better; they were xenophobic and isolationist. But Lyon's BoS have changed for some reason, can the same not be said of the Enclave? No, of course not, when an organisation so evil exists there can be no change. The Enclave's means is evil, their society is necessary.

See that's the problem, when their isn't just blind, F3 induced ignorance (that's because F3 does a bad job, not new comers to the Fallout series as I was myself) there are people, like you, who have thought about it reasonably, below obbsesive levels like me, but just debunk everything based on evil which you have proved in your own words.

The ends can only be used to justify the means if:
1. It actually leads there. So far all the Enclaves crimes (some of which like the creation of Supermutants are amongst the biggest problems the Wasteland faces) have been singularly unsuccessful in achieving their ends.
2. There isn't another way to achieve the end. Since the Enclaves means include killing off most of the human race on dubious racial purity grounds I find that hard to believe. The NCR has had much more success at rebuilding society using much less ruthless means (not that its perfect either).

1. Due to Player Characters, in Fallout 2 they were hours away from starting the Project and I still hold that there should have been some indication on the Oil Rig that an Oil Tanker Docked with it, pimarily the IFF system will have detected that the Vessel was approaching and not destroyed it, therefore, they should have known it was coming. F3 I have commented on the on the previous page and I can't b bothered finding that youtube video again which shows three Vertibirds just fly past Prime and get destroyed when they had the tactical advantage of coming in from behind with missles.

2. It is done on no such racial grounds, the Enclave hate the mutants because they are told (more than likely because such regimes need a common enemy, as can be evidenced by Enclave Patrolmens' lines) to but, objectively, it is done primarily because the Enclave has no ability to enforce order and that nobody on the mainland would respect their authority regardless; let's not forget that the NCR have already used dirty tactics to try and annex a technologically superior people, ie, Vault City.

I don't find the racial grounds dubious either, pedantic maybe but as I say that is not the 100% reason for the Project, most things on the mainland have been adversly affected by radiation, the people in Vault City have fertility issues to the point that all births must be done through artificial insemination because of radiation in the water.

That is niether here nor there to the point however, yes the NCR has done good in the wasteland; the point about the Enclave is that the enitre human race would have a managable population of healthy, educated and determined people, with all of the resources to get the job of rebuilding done, an already present government system, no raiders and such. I get the feeling that the NCR has a lot on it's plate and a lot of people needing help, the hypothetical Enclave world would expand as it needed too, very slowly due to the initial low population, and, therefore, there would be no towns left behind in terms of protection and resources.

I think the Enlcave, leaving out gameplay, are superior to BoS. They are good, but Fallout 3 made them bad in the way of being an enemy. The problem with Fallout 3 is that in bringing the franchise into a new world, it forgot the fact that Fallout is about interaction. The only thing you can do for the Enclave is shoot everyone and ignore Eden's quest, or shoot everyone and accept it. Honestly, my "wow" moment was when i walked out of the Enclave's bunker and saw all those Vetri-Birds flying off into the waste land, with Fawkes feeding a dozen Enclave troops gattling laser. My "wow" for BoS, Liberty Prime shouting "Communism is a lie!'' to various enemies before disintegrating them with large lasers and football nukes. The Enclave is better, but not in the way Fallout 3 presents it.

1. that tends to happen in RPGs (and fiction in general). The hero(ine) gets to make a difference. It doesn't really matter why the Enclave are such abject failures (or even how plausible you find it). What matters is that they are abject failures who have only ever made things worse.

2. And who tells the Enclave such things? Their leaders of course who have a long record of decieving even their own people. Low fertility isn't an excuse for exterminating people unless you have some sort of racial purity or fitness kick.

You keep going on about what a wonderful thing the hypothetical Enclave would be. Thats only a justification for their ends (even if I accepted it) if they succeed. So far they've only made things worse and are now in a very weak position so all the crimes they committed were for nothing and are just crimes.

Nobody does, even the President is labouring under the inncorrect truth that the mainland is, for the most part, inhospitalable; they have over-reacted to seeing California over-run with Super Mutants in the wake of the Master, as the Enclave first ventured onto the mainland in the 2170's. The Enclave have no such record of deceiving their own people, which is the exact point, they have a history, pre-war, of deceiving the American Public before the war, when they were a secret organisation which covered their tracks. They are not that organisation anymore; the Enclave, in essence, died when the bombs fell and they stopped being a shadow government and became the government. If these people are as evil and manipulative as you claim, then why would they fall for such a system? Why would they impose such a system upon themselves without good reason? What power is their aboard an Oil Rig? The Enclave does maintain order, amongst it's own, through propaganda; the point is that nobody is exept from it, there is no schemeing benefactor fooling people. Everyone grows up, and has for 150 years, in an enclosed environment where no-one is immune from the constant patriotic music and speeches; whilst Richardson does display signs of being above it, ie, he admits that the a pan mainland-Enclave system could work for a time before “the numeric pressure of your kind would tell” (my point being that an Enclave Patrolmen wouldn't be capable of thinking this), that doesn’t mean that he is not manipulating people through it; he fully believes in it as did everyone before him, and is even willing to give his life for it if need be, “You don't really expect that to work do you? Ha! If you try it, my guards have orders to shoot me rather than let anything, or anyone, endanger the Project. I'm staying right here. Now, are you going to shoot me or not?”, truly the words of an evil, scheming manipulating bastard.

The thing about radiation was just a disclaimer, in case someone would argue that because humans haven't become giants or ghouls or something then they must be the same, merely for anyone who seems to think that Fallout contains no realistic effects of radiation exposure.



I really have no idea what your point is here, of course it is only justification if they win, so what? In 2242 it was all or nothing, they could only not-succeed if they died, as they would let nothing stop the Project, as Richardson said, "The buck stops here." That doesn't negate anything I have said. As for them being in any position to justify their actions now, probably not, until we hear more of them the Enclave, to me, died at Navarro; don't assume that I love everything about them. I hate Eden and Autumn, by the time of F3 I care only about the people within the organisation itself as opposed to the organisation's motive's; if you want an example of the Enclave manipulating it's own people then look to Eden not the past and long dead Enclave, whom are the one care about.

In the end it all really relies on how your adventures in the wasteland were played out, you grow in that atmosphere knowing certain feelings a beliefs about all the organizations, cults, tribes, towns and other inhabitants.
I for one spent a lot of time getting to know the BoS and spending countless hours running from one side of the Citadel to the other looking to learn more. Then moving into Hidden Valley, slowly been accepted by a group that just yesterday was strong but know was weak i felt obligated to let them lean on my shoulder a little bit. The Enclave however I only got to really have a sit down with one time (with the president), after going through battle after battle with these guys I didn't care for one word they said. So because of that strong attachment to them I would obviously choose The Brotherhood.
Although that does not mean I agree that this group is morally better, mentally better, or even physically better then our enemies. I have heard and seen terrible acts done by The Brotherhood and frowned on all situations. The Brotherhood is a confused faction and I in no way will ever deny that there intentions can be clouded by tempt, worries, fear, etc......
Take the group that is held up at Hidden Valley, I had just come off a strong relationship with The Brotherhood, they had accepted me into the gigantic Citadel, we had activated a giant robot that helped us destroy there forces during Project Purity. Then we had destroyed the last off them only leaving small groups and traces of them around the wastelands. At this point I had giving my full support to The Brotherhood and my trust was with them forever, but that was easily noticeable as a bad decision once I arrived at Hidden Valley. I quickly realized how cold, spiteful, and scared the rules of The Brotherhood could make its followers. I started to research once again everything I could, but this time I wasn't mesmerized by there good deeds. There are all these files that can easily be accessed by any BoS member about stories of the past. Most leaders (maybe 90%) are fired from there position over petty reasons that could have easily been forgiving. With all that stress off not messing up its no wonder most demands are to "hold off a bit" or "maybe one day we'll leave but for now get this place on lock down".
Now I could go on all day about my faction but in the end they are the closest thing I got in the wastelands, cause hell... NCR hate me, Legions wiped off the map, House is dead, I need someone in the wasteland :S

My loyalty lies with the Brotherhood of Steel, but I'd also side with anyone who uses power armor too.

This is my opinion on both The Brotherhood of Steel and The Enclave

Brotherhood of steel =Tech Scavangers [Exept the East Coast BoS] which waste their time scavenging for Advanced Weapons Tecnology and hording it instead of using it to help the suvivors of the Great War.

The Enclave = Best hope for restoring Humanity to its former glory with Evil methods. :tops: