There are a lot of threads focused on removing leveled dungeons and making them static, along with loot. I honour this, and it was definitely needed in Oblivion.
However, I think this is some habitual residue left over from our years modding Oblivion.

In my opinion, leave the the current dungeons alone and focus on making great unique dungeons that aren't scaled, that have cool enemies and unique loot and weapons.
The modding community should, this time around, focus on making content-mods, rather than fixing what's already here.

Why am I saying this?

Because unlike Oblivion, Skyrim isn't completely broken.

The only reason changing game mechanics was a huge deal for the past 6 years is because Oblivion had REALLY crappy mechanics.

Since Skyrim doesn't have these problems, and level-scaling is actually pretty well done, then I don't see the need to stay in the modding mindset Oblivion put us in.

Oblivion has forced us into thinking like this: "How could I fix this? How could I fix that? Gosh, this game's so broken."
But we have to break away from that way of thinking, since it isn't needed.
Now we can think like this: "What unique stuff can I add?"


What I'm saying is this: the community can go back to the Morrowind days - where the best of the best modders used to mainly make new content, rather than fix the old content.

Yes, agreed.

Massive amounts of content, including new areas to explore, weapon types, spells, animations, textures, GUIs, etc are far more important to me than leveling system overhauls for Skyrim. Don't fix what ain't broke.


Great post too.

Well said, i agree completely. Well, apart from the UI

Though a static level dungeons mod would propably be something i'd use. It's easier to see me progressing when i don't constantly encounter tougher enemies. Though Skyrim has thrown at me enemies, or rather bosses that i've had no hope of defeating, so it has that somewhat covered too.

Modding is no one's job; people are going to end up doing whatever it is they are passionate about doing because otherwise the incredible tedium won't seem worth it to them.

If it were up to me, I would suggest that the dungeon scaling be removed before new dungeons get modded in, because it would be nice if the new dungeons fit in with the rest of the world as "unscaled" rather than being obviously modded content.

Obviously it's not up to me and what will actually happen is we'll see tons of new dungeon mods spring up as soon as the CS comes out while the long term "remove scaling" mod will take longer to come to fruition.

Agreed, this game has too much creative potential, don't waste it on fixing what isn't broken. Now some improvements here and there? Sure, but why not create new things first and let those concepts you come up with inspire your improvements later on.

I do agree that some of these may be left over feelings from Oblivion but, as is the case with my mod, I want a different way to play. Even If i only use it for a single playthru or half of a single playthru. It's just another way to think about it and you cannot enforce a standard that is good enough for everyone, some people say the game is too easy, others too difficult; for some its too grey, for others it is a perfect color scheme. Everyone has different opinions and thanks to Bethesda we have a format that allows us to try out all of these styles for ourselves. Do not pass judgment on a mod idea until you have played it.

Well, as I said in the other thread where you posted something like this: my problem with level scaling isn't the gameplay or the difficulty adjustments (both of those have been (almost) just fine in my experience); my problem is rather the feeling of a world that adjusts itself to you, instead of the player having to adjust himself to the world. It makes the gameworld feel shallow and artificial, and those ancient dungeons you encounter don't feel ancient as you know that dagger you picked up wasn't placed there by a Nord to honour his deceased relative, but instead it was placed there by the game's level scaling function to ensure smooth progression for the player. Even worse are the shops, where huge shipments of elven gear apparently arrive all of a sudden when the player reaches a certain level.

I do agree with your points to an extent OP, but the thing you have to keep in mind is that modding involves optional extras; the game isn't being changed for everyone.

With your reference to the dungeons for instance; I don't have an issue with the dungeons as they are now and am unlikely to be use a mod that makes them static. However, quite a few people do, in I think it is entirely worth their time for them to put the effort into creating a mod that makes the dungeons levelling static. That way they can use it and be happy, and people like us who don't want to use it don't have to. That way everyones happy and that is exactly how the modding community should function; giving the options that people want to them.

Pressing the entire modding community into the context of a mindset and then saying that everyone needs to therefore change their mindset because its incorrect and as a result they shouldn't be making the mods that they want to make is only counter productive.

There is no "direction" in modding. People are largely working independently on whatever interests them. You really have absolutely zero say in the matter; what people work on is completely up to themselves. If not enough work is being done in a particular area, in your opinion, the only possible solution available to you is to start working on that area yourself.

I didn't mean any disrespect, I think some of you are taking this the wrong way.

The level scaling is still bad. Not as bad as Oblivion but still a noticeable detraction from the rest of the game for me. Some NPC's health scales way too high, scaled up bandits are tougher than many Dragons, leveling non-combat skills too fast/early ends up being counterproductive, etc. etc.

I hope someone mods static enemies in or at least fixes some of the more major scaling issues. I also hope it's in a simple, bare bones mod that doesn't add too much crazy and often non-lore friendly stuff or require an insanely complex installation.

It certainly is in no way broken like OB was. Still, lots of things can be improved or added imho. I can enjoy it the way it is now but i know i will enjoy it more when the gameplay im more used to comes thru mods. More content won't make me as happy as gameplay tweaks and changes. For example, while combat is oodles better than OB's, my experience with Duke Patricks combat mods is still much better than getting more swords or armor added

You, sir, are going to love what I have planned. I'm adding my own new land with a main quest line (hopefully like 10-15 hours long), at least 5 main quests, about 20 new fully voiced characters, and many locations, dungeons, and cities to explore. See my sig for proof that I shall be completing this project, and it will not go abandoned.

I also agree. People seem to overlook quest/content mods all too often for some reason...

This is pretty much align to my thoughts, Level scaling is annoying, its hands is in everything and like Oblivion the game revoles around the player, I don't like that and intend on doing something about it.

I think it's a little from column A, a little from column B. With radiant story automatically moving quests from one dungeon to another (I think this happens? Correct me if I'm wrong) there needs to be some scaling, otherwise a beginners quest could be shoved into a high level dungeon.

But I completely agree with the shops part, they should have made price the barrier. Bump up the prices of all the armour by a good amount, and not only does it make smithing a good way of making money (things shouldn't be worth less than the materials they're made from!), but it would also mean that things like hide armour would actually be used - whats the point in them if the very first items you get in the game are better? Fallout 3 had the same problem - why bother putting the Chinese pistol in the game if 10mm pistols are abundant straight out of the vault?

I believe Skyrim's modding should be directed to making the NPCs more believable and improving the RPG elements. Polish up the features Skyrim already has.

Yeah agree on this.

Radiant AI my [censored]. The NPCs seem to have less life or schedule than they did in Oblivion. Sure they tend bar, work a forge, patrol the town but their responses are really as canned as Oblivions. It only looks slightly better.

And the quests so far seem very linear there is just more clean up if a quest participant dies. It isn't like there is branching quests (not that I've found anyway).

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As for level scaling - that is a matter of personal choice. If you reduce all the Oblivion mods that actually address level scaling you are looking at only around 10 mods ... out of 1000s of mods. Even within this small set of mods there are at least two trains of thought: redoc the level scaling (Frans, OOO, Warcry) or do away with it an un-scale the world (TIE, WAC, OWC ND). Since either can be done largely by making alterations to leveled list entries what I'm hoping that we shy away from this time is the idea that overhauls need to be all inclusive one plugin (or set of plugins) and that a more mix and match approach is taken.

For instance looking at OOO or Frans. What would be better is a modular approach. Make an esm with all the new gear and creatures then options on what kind of scaling you want (rescaled or unscaled).

just my 2 cents.

I'm not exactly sure how the radiant story works either, but I believe that those quests are simply one-off, random quests that aren't related to anything in the grand scheme of things; so in my opinion being told to go to a dungeon and finding it too difficult is not a bad thing as it reminds you that the world doesn't revolve around you, and you'll just have to come back later. There is no time limit to these things, in any event.

How about joining me in the Static Dungeons project, then?

(Shameless self promotion intended.)

I have to agree with the OP on this. Nothing short of the UI has disappointed me so far and I have over 50 hours logged on my character so far.

He's not trying to say "don't make these mods" and anyone that is taking it that way is wrong , he's simply saying that before we go out and try to decide what needs to be fixed, we simple take a step back first. Oblivion had 100 mods for every little thing because that game needed to be changed so badly. But with Skyrim the reaction so far has been overwhelmingly positive, so before you sit down and start making NPC scaling mod number 35, perhaps thinking about adding more content instead would be better.

I don't believe that the post was being made as a "You must do this!" type of statement, but rather an encouragement of reflection upon how we as modders can best expand this game that we all love so much. Again, the point being made here is that when you sit down to start a mod, obviously you need to do what you have interest in, but if you have interest in creating another fix that may or may not be needed and you also have interest in adding a new set of dungeons to explore, maybe push yourself towards the latter instead.

Oh boy, now you've done it.

Find a friend that has Skyrim as well, and discuss all the quests you have done. My friend keeps calling me to ask about them, and I am astonished to find that almost every single one plays out differently. He got the quest to retrieve the golden claw from a different person for different reasons. The quest about the soldiers searching for a Redguard woman, he got in an entirely different place than I did. The list goes on. So many details of quests are randomized. That's radiant story. (Not AI)

Even playing the game again on a new character has already shown me a wide variety in the same quests. Bethesda really did a fantastic job on this.

The OP revised his post after he wrote it. It is the original wording of his post that the first few posters were reacting to.

Agreed. I just replayed the first hour.

The first time around, I got directed to go to the first city by finding the girl at the stormcloak safehouse and asking her directly.

Second time around, I found the stormcloaks hanging out by the river at night, telling stories to each other. I hung around and listened, and the girl began a conversation directly with me. She took the initiative to invite me to the stormcloak safehouse.

She doesn't do that during the day when you find her walking around, seems she did it because it was a social sort of setting with only the stomcloaks, and it was a suitable time for her to invite me to hang out with them.


Let's not be fooled into thinking this is 'AMAAAZING' AI, but its smooth enough to make it 'FEEL' like it's realistic. It fools you and allows you to suspend your disbelief.


Uh no, I last edited the post for spelling corrections at 7:08 est. The second response was thirty minutes after that.

Yeah so a different person gives the quest to get the golden claw - it is still a go fetch quest to make an excuse to get to the dragon shout.

And my character at level 15 has not fought a dragon and so has learned two shouts and can't use them. It would seem that instead of the dramatic music and visual effects he should get a message saying this place is calling to you but it doesn't make sense at this time. There is a term in psychological treatment called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equifinality which means that while a family problem or other dynamic that occurs can arise from any member of a group but due to the pathology or other presenting problems the outcome is near always the same. So while the golden claw may come from another person once you go and get it the results are the same.

Like the companion quest line so far is pretty darn linear - that is unless in other games the whole werewolf thing is not even an option.

What I would like to see is different outcomes.

Yeah but what about the monotonous life in the towns. They are as drabbly scheduled as before. To my eyes anyway.

Well, it's obviously impossible for the dungeon itself to change inbetween playthroughs (with the golden claw being specific to Bleak Falls Barrow and so on), so this radiant story is probably more about who gives the quest than where it takes place. I never really expected it to be mindblowing, though. I am however curious as to whether misc one-off quests given by random NPC's might show you to a different dungeon, as Beth said they would.

So you didn't enjoy the beatiful scenery, fantastic level design, combat, puzzles, and rewards from doing Bleak Falls Barrow and that quest?