Hey guys,

I want to make my first REALLY big mod, which returns the Grey fox back in to the game, however, I'd like to know one thing.

Is there anything in the Canon that says he is dead/no longer around? I mean I know the hood's passed down, but that doesn't mean he couldn't disappear.


Also, Would anyone even like to see him return? I really like the Thieves Guild in both games and I'd like to see the best of both worlds

Thanks.

I don't recall anything stating he is dead/gone, but if you think about it, anyone could take up the mantle of Grey Fox, two hundred years have passed, so the new Fox probably won't be exactly like the old one we all knew, like how the DB changed over the years.

Thats the one thing I hated. The Dark Brotherhood in Skyrim svcked, because they had no rules or ANYTHING! It was kill, no reasons needed, just kill.


I want the Grey Fox to come to Skyrim and attempt to change the Thieves guild in Skyrim to what it was in Cyrodiil, how you didn't steal from the poor, etc.

Well with the DB I saw it as survival of the fittest, they were the last of their kind, so they didn't want to show anyone they were weak otherwise all the fear they put into Tamirel would vanish and they would be destroyed permanently.

I agree with your Grey Fox statement, he did what had to be done for a noble cause, he was basically the Robin Hood of Tamriel.

That was the point. The Dark Brotherhood lost its way, and the quest line was the story of putting it back where it was supposed to be.

TES has always been careful to avoid having only one possible outcome for what happened with the optional quests in previous TES games. So I say leave who had the mask ~200 years ago a mystery -- it doesn't really matter who had it, as they would have long died of old age and the mask could have changed hands several times since then.

The Gray fox is not involved in the Skyrim thieves guild, just the Cyrodiil one.

That could change, and thus be the plot to any Grey Fox mod.

I do not see why not but we kind of broke the curse so we could actually know the Gray Fox this time. Just when the mask is not on.

Nocturnal is still pissed about the curse being broken if the Thieves guild is anything to go by, maybe include that in your mod. Gray Fox fleeing the Wrath of Nocturnal's minions or something and you need to do another grand heist to basically blackmail Nocturnal into leaving the Gray Fox alone.

Make the Gray fox have unisix and Unirace(tails wrap around legs?} apparel though so we would not know who they are and surprise it is a women, or male, or argonian, or Khajiit, or Dunmer..etc etc...

Maybe steal the Eye of Nocturnal like those thieves in Oblivion just with better results? Steal the eye so she cannot see where the Gray Fox is or something?

Just some ideas. Feel free to use them if you want.

Would definitely like to see this created. There are so many ways to start it...

The Gray Fox is the persona adopted by anyone who wears the mask. Provided the mask still exists, there is no reason in principle why someone else could not get hold of it and take on the persona. The key here is coming up with an in-depth and believable story. That, and getting to know:

1) the modeling to make the mask
2) the scripting to make the quests/dialogue

Past 200 years about Gray boy died yet.

Its just a mask and an idea, so yeah. Find the tattered old cowl and become the grey fox. And they should start putting up wanted posters to catch this legend.

this is pretty much true. each area has its own guild. grey fox was near the imperial city for base of operations, so I don't think he/she would come themselves, but they might recieve a "request" and send an operator to check things out in riften, as a favor.

True, but since the Gray Fox follows the hood, and not the other way round, there is no reason why the hood could not have become "lost" and then found again by another thief (perhaps the Champion of Cyrodiil took it with him to Shivering Isles and it's been drifting through Oblivion ever since).

However, it left me truly lamenting the loss of the Morag Tong.

The Gray fox's Cowl (mask whatever) is a daedric artifact, if I remember right.

When you put it on your bounty shot up.
But when you took it off it went back to whatever you had before.
Even if you take it off in-front of someone.
Whether this is down to incomplete scripting or the fact that it's a daedric artifact and therefore "special" both leave it looking as though when wearing the mask you literally become a different person and when you take it off others cannot perceive the action properly.

Looking at it that way I guess the grey fox cannot die unless the mask is destroyed.

I am actually enjoying the thieves guild "edge" in Skyrim, the robin hood mentality overwhelmed the oblivion story line was too Saturday morning cartoony for me. Noble thieves? Yeah....right.

The Gray Fox is the person wearing Nocturnal's Cowl, no matter who that is. The moment they put on the Cowl, everybody fails to remember that someone else was standing there just a minute ago, and the moment they take it off, everyone gets confused and asks themselves where the Gray Fox went. If you tell someone your name while wearing the Cowl, all they hear is "I am the Gray Fox".

The person who was the Gray Fox at the start of the Thieves' Guild questline - the once-Count of Anvil - has long since died, unless something very odd happened to him. At any rate, he ceased to be the Fox when he broke the curse on the cowl (which took the identity of anyone who wore the Cowl permanently, and not just while they wore the Cowl) and passed it on to the next wearer. He was, in fact, very glad to be rid of it. He wanted nothing more than to return to a normal life with his beloved wife, who was quite adamant about him quitting his thieving.

The person who was the Gray Fox at the end of the Thieves' Guild questline - who, depending on your playthrough, may also be the Champion of Cyrodiil and/or the Madgod - has also long since died, unless they became the Madgod, in which case they long since passed on to managing concerns outside of Nirn.

In any event, the Cowl may or may not have been passed as an heirloom of the Thieves' Guild to each successive guildmaster. It's also possible that some guildmaster, not necessarily the Champion of Cyrodiil, at some point went a bit batty and buried the thing in the Jeralls, where the Dragonborn might later find it. If you make a Gray Fox mod, you have some leeway there; you just have to keep in mind what things may or may not have happened, and make some plan that works with those possibilities.

However, the "Robin Hood" figure you're thinking of, the person who once was the Gray Fox, is not in play. There could be someone else like him, but he himself is long dead. Find someone else to play the part, or be prepared with a whopper of a good excuse.

I'll add this: I never got the impression that the Cyrodiil Thieves' Guild left the poor alone out of noble impulses. I thought they did it out of self-preservation. The Thieves' Guild had to be somewhere, and sooner or later outsiders would know where that was; whoever knew it had to willing to hide the Guild. So they set up shop in the scummiest neighborhood there was, and payed out lightweight bribes when the neighbors needed help more than usual. The bribes were cheap, because the neighbors were poor. Anyone who cooperated was protected, while anyone who tried to inform got framed themselves. So yeah... Thieves' Guild does not equal Robin Hood's Merry Men.

THIS.

A questline to help the Grey Fox take over / turf war with the Thieves' Guild would be awesome.

Wow! In all honesty I didn't expect people to be this into the idea! I'm definitely going to attempt a vivid storyline involving the Grey Fox, I just wish I could figure out a way to involve the same grey fox from 200 years ago (It wouldn't be OBVIOUS, just suddle hints, like telling you about his stories through the Shivering Isles, and such.) But, that idea is probably not going to happen, I do intend to make this questline very involving, similar to the thieves guild in Oblivion, I need to think of a name for the mod though, then I'll make a dedicated topic for it!

I never played Oblivion, but it would be interesting to have Nocturnal approach you with the Cowl and that's how the quest line starts. Maybe you see the ghost of the old Grey Fox who preaches to you his ideals. Then throw in some ultimatum quests where you have to chose between stealing from the poor or rich.

Getting the old Grey Fox back is a job for a necromancer.

Alright, Once (or if ) this thread dies, I'll make an Official [WIP] thread for it!

Given that the whole point of the Cowl is that it overrides the personality of whoever wears it, it wouldn't be such a massive stretch to say that it absorbs elements of each wearer into the "Gray Fox" persona, which is then passed on to the next wearer.

Or that perhaps the Cowl has been changed and has now gained this power. The Daedric artifacts are direct extensions of their creators' minds after all, so they can alter their properties whenever they feel like it.