Maybe it kept that reputation, despite losing the actual safety during the time that the game takes place.

Only makes sense that news like that would take a while to travel throughout the Wastes.

It'd be interesting if there are several different powers in the Commonwealth and the Institute is just the only one that we've heard of.

Also, I can't see how Ronto couldn't be Toronto, Ontario.

Most likely, according to the popup before one goes to the Pitt, the area between The Pitt and D.C. is harsh, with very little supplies, and is described as being mostly tunnels and ruins of old highways. It's not an easy task to get from The Pitt to D.C., and vice versa, so it would take news awhile to get there.

I don't doubt there are various regional powers inside the Commonweatlh, but I would guess The Institute is the big boy on the block. We already know of organizations like The Railroad, and The Abbey of the Road, being in the area or at least in reasonable walking distance, but I would suspect The Institute is the one who has the most power.

It's interesting to note that we have The Pitt as being the big boy on the block in the remains of the pre-war "Eastern Commonwealth", D.C. is the regional power in the remains of the pre-war "Columbia Commonwealth", and The Institute is the big guy in the remains of the "New England Commonwealth". Intentional or not, Bethesda seems to be doing a "one big power per commonwealth" thing.

The Institute seems reclusive to me. Why do you think they are the regional powerhouse (implying they rule or at least heavily influence their surroundings)?

The fact that Ashur referenced their(The Institute's) industry over anything else, and the fact that Zimmer says the rest of the commonwealth is "a war-ravaged quagmire of violence and despair."

The Commonwealth is, apparently, a massive crap-hole equaling, if not greater than, the Capital Wastes, besides The Institute.

Exactly.

Let me repost Ashur's quote:

"Citizens of The Pitt, workers of Downtown, traders of Uptown, and all the fierce souls who do what must be done! I bring you good news! We stand at the dawn of a new golden age. Where others merely survive, we thrive! Our industry is the envy of the Commonwealth! Our safety is the envy of the Capital Wastes! Our might is the envy of Ronto!..."

So he says their industry is the envy of the Commonwealth. Does that mean the Institute, because it has industry?

Let's look at what he says next: "Our safety is the envy of the Capital Wastes!" Does that mean the CW is safe?

I'd say the quote expresses the opposite of the Institute being a regional powerhouse, considering this comparative argument.

Going from what Bethesda dev Emil said, yes, the C.W. is generally considered a safe place on the east coast. People cross the ocean from Europe to reach the C.W. because it's NICE compared to Europe.

Ronto is a military power, The Commonwealth is industrious, and the C.W. is considered "safe". That's the point of his speech,

"Ronto is a military power, but we are so strong that they have a reason to envy our military might"

"The Commonwealth is industrious, but we have achieved Industry so great they have reason to envy our level of industry"

"The C.W. considers themselves safe, but our safety is so great that they have reason to envy how safe we are"

Ashur was comparing the greatest qualities of those three places to the Pitt and saying The Pitt is better.

Emil said this to emphasize in what a bad shape Europe is, not how safe the CW is. Do you believe that the Capital Wasteland is a role model for safety in eastern post-war America so much that Ashur explicitly uses this location as an example?

If that's the case, the Institute's industrial power can't be that great, more so, it would make the Pitt the most developed region on the east coast.

Given what we know of how the Pitt was before the BoS came, what Zimmer says about the Commonwealth, how places like Point Lookout are, and what little tidbits of lore we have from places like the wastes between the C.W. and The Pitt, and towns like Philly, and Great Lanta.

Yeah, the C.W. is miles ahead of everywhere else that we know of. in terms of safety.

Hard to believe, but you have a point.

Still, the industrious might of the Commonwealth doesn't equate to the Institute being a powerhouse. Zimmer also says that it's a closed environment, sealed from the 'war-ravaged quagmire of violence and despair'. How about this quagmire being the industrial power?

I mean if the CW is safe?

Or perhaps the Institute is just the one that's the strangest and most notable to those outside the region. It's so strange and mysterious that it's well known, almost legendary, hundreds of miles away from it.

We were talking about this in the posts before yours. Maybe at the height of the CWBoS (around the 2250s) the Capital Wasteland was considered safe but the CWBoS's fall, the rise in supermutant attacks, etc. hadn't really become well known to people outside the Capital Wasteland so it maintained a reputation of being safe despite what we see in game.

Also, perhaps the Commonwealth isn't in anarchy but is divided up between several industrialized military powers (I know this is unlikely because it's Bethesda and they like using the words "war-ravaged" to refer to problems caused by the two century gone Great War but it's still an interesting thought).

Maybe the people of those regions are also very hyper-nationalistic, which is what leads to it being such a quagmire. Once one nation gains power and advances, it's repelled by the populace and then the fighting is equal again (sort of in the vein of 1984).

*This is just an idea backed by nothing but I really hope Bethesda does something like this, it would be incredibly interesting.

While that's possible, I don't really see it happening. One does not set up a place like The Institute, while hand-waving everything else in the area as being a crap-hole, and then not refer to The Institute when talking about how powerful the area is. Even with how meh Bethesda's writing is, even they don't make writing blunders like that.

Actually, super mutant attacks aren't on the rise, they have been going down constantly since the BoS showed up. Super Mutants use to attack Megaton, then the BoS showed up, now they are mostly bottled up in the ruins of D.C.. Installing Broken Steel actually lowers the number of super mutant spawns, and adds new dialog where super mutants talk about how "the bucket heads" have been killing so many of them lately, that, and when combined with the fact they have been running low on FEV for years now, shows they are, and have been, on a steady decline.

@sebor13 I should read everything before posting.

Your idea sounds very interesting, especially since you mentioned 1984. You know I wrote something about warring factions in the Commonwealth, each being based on a premise of 1984's world.

Ignorance is Strength
Freedom is Slavery
2+2=5
War is Peace

I didn't factor in the Commonwealth's industry though. I have a christian faction, a radical synth faction, a raider faction, the Institute and the hedonistic populace north of Boston.


I agree with Awesome. The BoS is essentially what gives the CW security.

The thing about blunder I can't subscribe though. Why doesn't Ashur refer directly to the Institute, when they so clearly distinct themselves from the Commonwealth?

Likely for the same reason he doesn't refer to a specific city in the C.W., despite the C.W. being a lawless hole in the ground overall.

People in the Pitt are ignorant, they know areas, big regions, but most likely have no idea what Megaton, or Rivet City, are. Midea, who is probably the most educated slave we see in The Pitt, doesn't even know what a super mutant is. It's unlikely they know of The Institute by name, they know of the Commonwealth, and that there's big stuff going on there, but not The Institute's name.

So the institute isn't secluded behind it's sealed doors? Like Zimmer says? They are well known at least within the Commonwealth? Yet don't care for other affairs and thus remain sealed away? Thus aren't reaching out to overpower the wastes, having only a small, legendary industry behind their gates?

No? Its secluded behind it doors, but that doesn't stop people from knowing about it. Three Dog knows about it, and talks about it, should you turn in Harkness to Zimmer, in such a way like everyone who is listening would know about it.

Everyone knows there's a big place with high tech stuff up there, but not everyone knows its name.

Wow you answer fast, I edited something in .

I have no life.

-They are secluded in their sealed environment.

-They are well know through The Commonwealth, all the way down into D.C., and as far west as The Pitt.

-They seemingly don't care about what goes on outside their walls unless it has to do with tech stolen from them, or tech that "ran away"

-As far as we know they aren't trying to take over any part of the wastes

-They are well known for producing incredibly high tech things

The general lack of other things in The Commonwealth causes others to equate The Institute with The Commonwealth since its the only thing really interesting in the area.

"Looks like Rivet City's latest visitor, a certain Zimmer from the scientifically superior Commonwealth, has finally packed his bags and headed home. Weird thing is, trusted Rivet City resident and head of security Harkness has abandoned his life here in the Capital Wasteland... and gone with him. A case of unrequited middle-aged romance, or some kind of spontaneously beneficial business arrangement? I'd ask the kid from 101, but I hear he's busy oogling some newly obtained piece of shiny Commonwealth technology. Quite a 'coinc-of-a-dink', that..."

Ah ok, I guess I misunderstood the power factor thing. Not very bright, since we already discussed it in the Synth thread, now that I think of it.

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/United_States_annexation_of_Canada.

Some civilization survives there, though, as Marge LeBarge from Redding was born on the shores of the eponymous lake.

Perhaps we have Ashur's speech backward, he's pointing out what those societies lack. Advanced technology doesn't mean you have powerful industry, maybe all that shiny tech is made by individual engineers rather then mass production so the supply is limited. CW obviously is not a safe place

Or maybe Ashur is just making [censored] up to keep the slaves in line.

It isn't anymore but it used to be safe (and still seems viewed as pretty safe). Ronto (if it is Toronto, Canada) makes sense as a military power in lore, and New England had a massive industry pre-war and very well could post-war if somebody were to get them all up and running again.

Also Toronto Canada isn't that far from Hamilton Ontario. Which is known for being a Steel making city much like Pittsburgh. The Greater Toronto Area and in Toronto itself is a lot of industry. Sure Toronto today is seem as more of a banking city and a tourist city but there is a big industrial part as well. There's also a port area as well. It is a big center for trains hence the CN Tower.

So if people are getting the idea that Toronto isn't an industrial area. They need to think again. Ronto could be more then just a city but a regional power that controls other cities such as Hamilton and the GTA.

It might not have been an Industrial area anymore by 2077, or those industrial areas may suffered direct nuclear attack and no longer exist. Ashur didn't mention Ronto as an example of Industrial power after all. But then again maybe he's just a lair and Ronto produces ten times as much steel as The Pitt but without the slavery.

Regarding the Capital Wasteland I think Ashur (who doesn't hide his past) refers to the Brotherhood of Steel. They are well known to destroy anything menacing the populace and to much greater effect than the Regulators or Reilly's Rangers could. They are the single reason why people deem the CW safe. Maybe the CW is expecting mass immigration in the future due to this reputation, a burden under which the Lyon's Brotherhood will crumble.

Yeah I'm pretty sure this is what he means.

"Our safety is the envy of the Capital Wasteland."

-The Capital Wasteland isn't a safe place to live, so they envy how protected we are here in the Pitt.

"Our industry is the envy of the Commonwealth."

-The Commonwealth, while possessing advanced technology, doesn't have the raw industrial power we do.

"Our might is the envy of Ronto."

-Ronto, while a major regional power doesn't have the military strength we do to back them up.

The last one is a bit shaky, since we know next to nothing about Ronto, but this all makes perfect sense otherwise.