The word "OPINION" is ruining all forms of discussio : Othor Games

» Tue May 15, 2012 11:17 pm

This reminds me of an opinion piece I read recently ( :laugh:

). I'll skip on linking the article itself, since it touches on some contemporary politics, but I think this quote (from 1993) is old enough to not be a big problem, especially since it's on a topic few people here are likely to even know of:

Caller: Good morning.
John Laws: Okay, the Prime Minister is here.
Caller: Yes, good morning. Just a very broad question, Mr Keating, is: why does your government see the Aboriginal people as a much more equal people than the average white Australian?
Paul Keating: We don't. We see them as equal.
Caller: Well, you might say that, but all the indications are that you don't.
Paul Keating: But what's implied in your question is that you don't; you think that non-Aboriginal Australians, there ought to be discrimination in their favour against blacks.
Caller: Not... whatsoever. I... I don't say that at all. But my... myself and every person I talk to - and I'm not racist - but every person I talk to...
Paul Keating: But that's what they all say, don't they? They put these questions - they always say, "I'm not racist, but, you know, I don't believe that Aboriginal Australians ought to have a basis in equality with non-Aboriginal Australians. Well, of course, that's part of the problem.
Caller: Aren't they more equal than us at the moment, with the preferences they get?
Paul Keating: More equal? They were... I mean, it's not for me to be giving you a history lesson - they were largely dispossessed of the land they held.
Caller: There's a question over that. I think a lot of people will tell you that. You're telling us one thing...
Paul Keating: Well, if you're sitting on the title of any block of land in NSW, you can bet an Aboriginal person at some stage was dispossessed of it.
Caller: You know that for sure, do you?
Paul Keating: Of course we know it for sure!
Caller: Yeah, [inaudible].
Paul Keating: You're challenging the High Court decision, are you? You're saying the High Court got this all wrong.
Caller: No, I'm not saying that at all! I wouldn't know who was on the High Court.
Paul Keating: Well, why don't you sign off, if you don't know anything about it and you're not interested. Good bye!
Caller: Yeah, well, that's your ...
Paul Keating: No, I mean, you can't challenge these things and then say, "I don't know about them".
John Laws: Oh well, he's gone.

Should be obvious why I think it's relevant, but I'll give a quick explanation anyway.

Opinions are not sacred. They are not irreproachable. They can be wrong. Sometimes they are wrong in such a way -or on such a topic- that they can/will simply be ignored, dismissed as not worth the bother. Sometimes it is merely a different perspective and actually is equally valid.

But sometimes someone will hold an opinion which is wrong, unsubstantiated, and deleterious. In such cases they need to be challenged, denied foothold wherever possible. It may not always be possible to change the mind of the person holding it, but stopping others before they take it in and make it their own is enough, more or less.

"Just an opinion" is never a get-out-of-jail-free card. If you are right, you need to prove it. If you are proved wrong, you need to accept it. Only after reasonable debate, where you have established that neither argument is any more correct than the other, may you conclude that it is a matter of opinion.

'O 'course, y' don't need to be overly serious about which game-weapon is better, or what piece of electronics is superior, but cheap cop-outs are never cool

(just say "No!", kids!). Back out *gracefully* if you feel the need.

But that's just what I say, so it must be 100% inarguable.

» Wed May 16, 2012 5:00 am

http://xkcd.com/1013/

"You will be led to judgement like lambs to the slaughter - a simile whose existence, I might add, will not do your species any favors."
:lmao:

The xkcd captions are often even funnier than the comics themselves. In my opinion.

» Wed May 16, 2012 12:41 pm

If there were no people with opinions...wouldn't the world be a very dull place? Isn't the magic of humanity and socialism, the varying differences between our ideals?

» Wed May 16, 2012 6:36 am

My http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/your_opinion.jpg?w=720to every post in this thread.

If there were no people with opinions...wouldn't the world be a very dull place? Isn't the magic of humanity and socialism, the varying differences between our ideals?

Indeed. No matter how much people like it or not, everyone has an opinion. And as you say, the world would be pretty dull if everyone had the same one.

And OP: You are very right in your post, I agree with it alot. It's a part of the discussion to question and talk about each others opinion. We shouldn't use our opinion as an excuse to get out of the discussion if you are willingly engaging yourself in one with someone.

» Wed May 16, 2012 12:39 am

I hate when people bandy around words like "political correctness" as a catch-all term for any form of argument that they're personally incapable of refuting.

If you think confusion about facts and opinions is ruining "all forms of discussion" - which I think is basically your point - then clearly the only discussion you're actually aware of is either on the Internet, amongst teenagers or both.

» Wed May 16, 2012 2:30 am

My opinion is that the moon is made out of cheese.

And I respect your opinion, though I disagree; the moon is clearly made out of chalk.

Regarding the subject of this topic, opinions are what drive most debates. For example, when discussing the quality of a video game. If there was such a thing as an objective level of quality that a game can be classified at, people would still disagree with it and opinions would still dominate said discussions. Opinions vary, they often oppose, and if things begin to heat up, the debate is lost and it becomes a battlefield. Saying "IMO" is more of a disclaimer than being politically correct; it's there to remind the people reading that it's an opinion (Trust me, people usually do need this reminder) and is a way to avoid early conflict. Notice that word "early", because most debates, at least on here, end up becoming flame wars eventually. :shrug:

» Wed May 16, 2012 6:52 am

What people don't realize is that not everyone is entitled to an opinion on every topic. And while de gustibus non disputandum est, while hold true for tastes, it does not hold true for truths and real issues. Relativism is the greatest danger in our generation. I'm glad to see a few other people with that general concern.

» Tue May 15, 2012 11:34 pm

What people don't realize is that not everyone is entitled to an opinion on every topic.

It is my opinion that I am. Though I may not usually participate in discussions about truths and real issues, I still have opinions of them. These opinions are mine and mine alone, and I choose to believe or not believe whatever I want. My mind does not belong to science or religion or any group of people; it belongs to me, and whatever opinions I have in this short life of mine will remain as such.

» Tue May 15, 2012 11:27 pm

"Lock him up and throw away the key, boys
Mr Jones is not like you and me
Lock him up tight cuz if he had the chance he might
Show us that we're wrong and that's the one thing we can't be"
- "Puttin' Up With The Jonses", Spirit of the West

» Tue May 15, 2012 11:18 pm

I don't think it's anything to do with political correctness but is more a symptom of the number of people who state their opinions as if they were indeed irrefutable facts. There are others who'd like to be clear that they're not doing the same; seems fair enough to me.

That's how I use it too. So if we were talking about say the factions in New Vegas, I might put "IMO Mr. House is the best choice because...", implying that I'm up for discussion as I'm not trying to state it as fact.

» Tue May 15, 2012 9:47 pm

What people don't realize is that not everyone is entitled to an opinion on every topic. And while de gustibus non disputandum est, while hold true for tastes, it does not hold true for truths and real issues. Relativism is the greatest danger in our generation. I'm glad to see a few other people with that general concern.

You can't stop yourself from having an opinion, but yeah, not everyone is entitled to have his opinion weigh into every discussion. I assume that's what you meant?

» Wed May 16, 2012 4:00 am

My reading of the OP is they want to debate an issue, but the "opponent" responds with "that's your opinion" as an escape mechanism to avoid the debate.

Not everyone has the same interest in discussing/debating an issue. If that response is used in the midst of an ongoing debate, rather than replying with their own opinion or questioning your position, they just signaled that they are not interested in debating the issue further since their opinion is "the truth" and you are an unwashed barbarian spewing nonsense.

» Wed May 16, 2012 12:46 pm

My reading of the OP is they want to debate an issue, but the "opponent" responds with "that's your opinion" as an escape mechanism to avoid the debate.

I think that may be wishful reading. Let's hope that's what he meant.

» Wed May 16, 2012 2:29 am

IMO, my opinions are proven facts that can not be disproven or argued ever. It is my opinion that I am always right and you are wrong, or is it a fact that I'm right and your wrong? Either way, imo, I'm right.

This thread, imo, is stupid.

Imoinb4lock

» Wed May 16, 2012 4:52 am

People have a really bad way of expressing themselves, generally. Like one person on these boards a while back who said that playing Skyrim without fast travel is the only way to play the game - he came across sounding like a dike because it was all "You need to play THIS way, not YOUR way!" and so, the natural response is to cut him down with a "your opinion" response. It's very effective.

So. OP. When you want to debate something? And you don't want people to come back with a stupid response like "herp, your opinion, derp"? Don't start the debate by making it sound like everything you have to say is fact and you've already won.

Basically, don't come across as a dike and you should be okay.

» Tue May 15, 2012 11:41 pm

My reading of the OP is they want to debate an issue, but the "opponent" responds with "that's your opinion" as an escape mechanism to avoid the debate.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1373940-airline-stupidity-the-seat-upright-regulation/

» Wed May 16, 2012 2:23 am

I mostly agree.

Simply saying "that's just my opinion" is not an argument. Whether people like it or not, opinions aren't sacred, and once you share your opinion then it becomes open to criticism.

I especially can't stand it when people use "in my opinion" before every sentence in an attempt to be more politically correct.

I don't agree with this, though. It's not about being politically correct, some people do have the arrogance to present their opinions as facts, so stating that beforehand prevents misunderstanding.

» Wed May 16, 2012 7:00 am

Not everything can be proven and some opinions can be stated as fact.

"It is my opinion that liver tastes like crap. "

"In my opinion turn based game play is boring."

"It is my opinion that we are all entitled to have opinions in which the only facts are what we feel inside, what we like as an individual or preferences in sound, taste, feelings or beliefs. We can not know what someone else feels about the same things unless we ask for their opinion."

Do you like liver?

» Wed May 16, 2012 6:24 am

"It is my opinion that liver tastes like crap. "

It tastes like blood, and I loathe the taste of blood. Yuck.

» Wed May 16, 2012 10:37 am

I don't think it's anything to do with political correctness but is more a symptom of the number of people who state their opinions as if they were indeed irrefutable facts. There are others who'd like to be clear that they're not doing the same; seems fair enough to me.

Yep.

"In my opinion Skyrim seemed a tad rushed and underwhelming" - vs - "Skyrim was really rushed and underwhelming."

One statement encourages friendly debate. One statement stakes out an absolute position on the issue and by inferences antagonizes any other POV.

» Wed May 16, 2012 3:53 am

When it comes to internet arguments, opinions tend to occupy some sort of untouchable space due to their differentiation from facts. A "fact" is seen as something verifiably true, with evidence to support it. Opinions are applied to things that either can't be proven either way, or are too complicated to be declared with simple online-provided evidence, or things that simply only apply to the individual person.

Unfortunately, people go too far with that "can't be proven/disproven" factor and exploit it to protect themselves. If they don't like your statement, it becomes "just your opinion", shorthand for saying that you can't prove it and therefore they don't have to accept it. If someone disagrees with them, their own statement becomes "just their opinion," meaning it can't be disproven and therefore they never have to admit being wrong. Ultimately it's a useless sentiment, same as countless other argument tactics to avoid ever being wrong. Subjects like personal taste are where the idea of having to "respect" someone's opinion applies, in that whether or not it can be proved doesn't apply, and any attempt to argue it becomes you acting like a jerk because you can't accept someone being different from you.

Any other situations, though, and there's no obligation at all to "respect" their opinion, since they're just abusing the word to escape an argument they can't actually back up but won't relent on.

» Tue May 15, 2012 11:32 pm

Unfortunately I do agree that throwing the word "opinion" out there is problematic when having a discussion or trying to make a logical argument. It's a true double edged sword because you need to define your opinions while at the same time having factual information to back up that belief/opinion. Sometimes the people out there are idiots and say everything is an opinion even factual information when their "opinion" is the only factual information that matters in their minds.

» Wed May 16, 2012 1:42 am

Sometimes the people out there are idiots and say everything is an opinion even factual information when their "opinion" is the only factual information that matters in their minds.

Sounds exactly like me.

» Wed May 16, 2012 11:22 am

Yep.

"In my opinion Skyrim seemed a tad rushed and underwhelming" - vs - "Skyrim was really rushed and underwhelming."

One statement encourages friendly debate. One statement stakes out an absolute position on the issue and by inferences antagonizes any other POV.

Those 2 statements are just as bad as each other.

It's when people do not seem to make any effort to qualify their statements that it becomes harder to accept them at face value.

"Skyrim was really rushed and underwhelming" vs "Skyrim was really rushed and underwhelming because it wasn't Morrowind... and I cannot believe the irrational decision not to include more bananas".

It's nice to have a little insight as to where a comment is coming from.

It helps you relate.

Az

» Tue May 15, 2012 10:57 pm

"In my opinion turn based game play is boring."

HOW DARE YOU! I demand satisfaction! Pistols at dawn, my lady!

The word &#34;OPINION&#34; is ruining all forms of discussio

The word "OPINION" is ruining all forms of discussio