I agree with you on stealth part of DE, I thought that Dishonored was build around being stealth title first, while providing some action for whoever who likes, but I think there is no way to tell how solid the stealth system in Dishonored till we see it.

I haven't played a lot of FPS, but I'm a fan of the Assassin's Creed games, and I think stealth was handled well in TPS in those games. And in some RPGs (Fallout comes immediately to mind) there's an option to switch from third person to first person whenever you like. I think it's really all about what you're comfortable with and what suits your play style best. But this game, Dishonored, definitely has my attention, and may get me more into first-person games. Very much looking forward to it.

Exactly.

Arkane has been very clear that they hate gameplay systems that take control away from players, even something like sticky cover systems, where your character's movement is taken out of your hands.

I think third person is simply doesn't gel with their design philosophy.

Besides, if you're trying to make an immersive sim like Dishonored, third person is the quickest way to ruin the experience. You want to be in your character's head, seeing exactly what he is seeing, hearing what he is hearing.

TPV doesn't take away from the character, in fact based on my experience it is way better to make a solid connection with the character in TPV than in FPV, which in returns help the game being immersive, a walking hand isn't really to my liking.

Also cover system doesn't take away the player control, TBH that is actually stupid, god-view yeah, but cover no, cover is a solid mechanic that can be used in stealth, combined with peaking and you got one hell of a feature, beside I am pretty sure Dishonored will have a cover system too.

Last point, how would I be in my character head in FPV, most of the time FPS have protagonist with no character whatsoever, they are just being led from point to point without having a say in the matter, that is another reason why I get worried about the FPV and what it can do, it can totally kill any immersion you may have with the character, you are just doing the actions, but what is he thinking, what is his opinion, you have no idea to know, that is not being in his head, that is being his hand.

Personally I find FPViewpoints to be much more immersive than 3rd person. The whole being out of body is what destroys the immersion for me.

If you want good examples of how stealth works with FPViews you should look back on the Thief series or Deus Ex. Both are extremely immersive and the stealth elements flow well with the unlinear levels. I believe it was splinter cell and MGS that destroyed the FPV-Stealth market, and imo it is about time we got back to gameplay that is still applauded to this day as some of the best out there.

Third person cover mechanics are a negative towards player control because we are put into a mechanical, controlled part of the gameplay. You are automatically covered from eyesights behind a corner, and we are shown a view point that simply doesn't make sense, and are thus drawn out of the experience. Whilst in a first person view with leaning mechanics we have much more control and responsibility, and thus have a much higher chance of human error, giving us a harder but more controlled/realistic and imo immersive experience.

See the thing is SC & MGS are great TPV Stealth games, and I dare say never break the immersion, as for the cover, lean can be present in TPV games as well, a simple example is The Target Footage of Rainbow 6 Patriots, you will see the character needs to peak to see behind cover, and while he is in cover the camera zooms into him, so he doesn't end up with god view, so yeah lean can also be there in TPS.

As for TPV or FPV being immersive, I think we will agree to disagree, I find it hard to relate to hands without seeing the character or being connected to him, especially when the characters are so silent and without an opinion.

I doubt it. Read Arkane's manifesto here: http://www.ttlg.com/shownews.asp?id=902

Here's a specific mention of cover systems:



Sounds to me like they don't like the very concept of cover systems.

If you want to take cover, just move behind an environmental object yourself. There's no need for some automatic snap-to-cover system.

Thanks for the link, I didn't know that, I thought it was there based on the trailer.

Here is the thing about cover IMO, I don't want an automatic snap to cover, I want a manual one, I go behind cover, then make my character stick his back/side to the cover, so that I can hide most of my body, while peeking around the cover to assess the situation, this is not something out of control, this is total control.

^{They need to handle the camera just like Skyrim, Toggable 1st and 3rd with a zoomable but lock able 3rd person view}

Exactly, Options should be there.

Yeah I believe the option should be given to the player. I like to interchange the view points once in a while just because it adds a freshnes to the game everytime I chaneg it

I personally think the option should be excluded. Even the presence of such a mode would make the experience....cheaper, for lack of a better word. More casual. Less serious.

From what I hear, though, they will be sticking with First Person. So I'm happy.

I don't mind first person but I want to see a lot of detailed hand motions with the character and sound from him as well. Even if he is silent, I'd like to hear gasps or grunts like in BioShock. And by hand motions, I mean when you accidently fall to your death I want to see the character waving his arms about or something. If there are first person kill moves I want them to be realistic and give you the feeling that your character is putting some strength into snapping a guy's neck up close or other methods.

There is no third person view. You play the game in first person. It's kind of an odd request to make of the developers... I don't go on Bioware's forums and ask them to make ME in first person...

I don't care whether the protagonist is silent or not. I just care that the game looks pretty (they seem to have that covered) and that it's fun to play.

well here is the thing I don't understand, what is the connection between TPV & Casual !!!, You think Splinter Cell, Hitman, Metal Gear Solid, Velvet Assassin ................... etc are for casual players !!!!, you got to be kidding me.





well no one cares about graphic, and I care about the story alot, so the silent character may ruin that for me, and there is nothing wrong with making requests, and it is not odd at all, since it has been done in other games like Skyrim and Deus Ex Human Revolution, there is nothing odd in making request.

Speak for yourself. I wasn't referring to graphics, anyway. I was referring to the aesthetic sensibility of the game.


Okay. I doubt they'll change the game just for you, though.


TESV and DE:HR were created from the ground up with the intention of being played in third person. It's not like, 6 months to a year before release, someone went on those games' forum and requested third person perspective. This game is in first person. The developers aren't going to slap third person on at the last moment, and I don't know why you'd want them to: they have a specific vision, and hastily amending it can only lead to bad things.

okay ?!.

Sure it's just me ?! http://forums.bethso...en-so-far/, knowing about the character should help me determine my expectation in regards to the story, as for me Story is a big thing in video games, I don't think it is to you though.


maybe they got the option somewhere and didn't get into it ?!, beside we are yet to see any gameplay, as I said before if it doesn't work then that's okay with me, but I want to know first if there is an option or not, then see the gameplay and decide, also it is not just me who want TPV, there are others who agree with me too, maybe not here though, but they are around

I can't see how an option would hurt the game, if it works that is, if it doesn't then yeah I understand, but so far if the indoor environment has covers and such, then it can support TPV.

That's just incorrect though. I don't know if you've ever talked to a DX fan ever, but the vast majority of them would have preferred Human Revolution to be first-person the entire time, and implementing a third-person mode means time taken away from perfecting the first-person aspect, which is clearly Arkane's forte. Either you get weighty animations and a first-person view that "feels" good like Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, or you sacrifice that to put in an additional viewpoint, and end up with a game like Human Revolution, which while still an excellent game, didn't do a striking job at encouraging first-person immersion.

And for the record, immersion is not a connection you feel to a character you're playing as. It's how much you feel that you ARE that character.

I feel I am the character when I am connected to him, when you give me a silent character, I don't feel that, I don't care about that character or if he dies, or get betrayed, or whatever, cause he is non existent.

As for DX well I didn't speak to DX fans, but since I am a big Splinter Cell fans and always there in the official forum, so yeah I talked with quite some stealth fans, who really liked the game, and non complained about TPV.

As for FPV immersion I believe Jensen as a character, the social system, the shifting into TPV, seeing your whole character during cutscenes or conversations start, that what made it immersive, maybe you didn't feel that, I respect your opinion, but I totally felt the immersion, and never once felt disconnected from it, I can't feel the immersion with a character who got no characterization, and his only purpose is to be a puppet in my hand.

Like I said, you aren't supposed to feel connected to the character. You ARE the character. Playing Splinter Cell, you aren't Sam Fisher. You're playing AS Sam Fisher, because he's his own character with his own story and motivations. In the first-person immersion games, the character is a blank slate because YOU are the character. The character is just an anolog to put YOURSELF into the game, where the choices made and the emotions felt are yours, the player's, not the character's.

You're talking about being immersed in a story from an outside perspective. I'm talking about literally being in and part of the story.

But you are never in a game, you are always having a controller, and if you are in a game will you be ordered around, not have an opinion, and never act according to your will ?!, I don't see how I am in any game and be just blank, I feel connected to a character, and that's only when I feel I am that character.

As for Sam Fisher believe it or not to a certain degree you shape him, in Chaos Theory for example you can either save the 2 pilots from the blast radius or just leave them, that is you deciding what to do, Sam's actions is a reflection of your own self, in FPS blank character ........., well you never have such choice, that's why Splinter Cell ends up being more engaging to me than any other game.

I enjoy FPS games like Resistance series or Killzone series where there are real characters, as opposed to Call of Duty, Crysis or Battlefield, where I am so disconnected from the character, the story actually begins to not matter since it doesn't affect the character at all, there is no input from you, you just play, that's not immersion in my opinion, whenever I see a character that actually have a character I imagine myself as him, I don't do so with blank characters.

I may show my point better but it depends, did you play Medal of Honor 2010 ?!

But you're not supposed to be connected to the character. You're supposed to be the character yourself. But I know what you're saying. And even though you may be able to make a few choices in a Sam Fisher game or any other linear game, the outcome is always the same. The character is who he is, there is no changing that. He's the kind of character that has multiple paragraphs only about his personality on Wikipedia. Whereas Corvo or someone like the Dragonborn wouldn't have this because the character is whoever you want him to be. You can go through the entire game without killing anyone in Dishonored, and suddenly your character is a pacifistic peace keeper, or you can kill every one violently without warning and suddenly he's a maniacally evil psychopath, these are just example. But I see your opinion, I'm sure there plenty of people who can't get into the FPV playstyle, but really there is no going back now. Dishonored will be a FPV only game. You should get it anyway though, it might change your opinion.

FPV only has been confirmed? If so then awesome!

In another thread it was confirmed that there will not be animations of the feet and legs, so I would assume that it is First Person only.