Please indicate how Ulfric is "short-sighted."

A united Empire also makes spying and intelligence-gathering easier, especially since they've already been doing it for a quarter-century.

I don't see any reason to believe that he has no idea of it. Does the Empire have "no idea" that everything they've done for the past 25 years has been playing right into the Thalmor's hands? Ulfric may very well believe that what he is doing now will lead to an outcome that negates any advantage the Thalmor hope to gain from it in the short term, and accept the fact that those short term advantages are a reality that can't be helped under the circumstances.

I mean, c'mon, isn't that what the Empire has been doing ALL THIS TIME? Letting the Thalmor have the advantage "for now" because they believe that in the long run it will be the Empire that gains the upper hand? Is that not their plan? If it isn't, then there's no excuse to be supporting them at all at this point.

He used to be in the Imperial Legion. Then he got caught. He wants out so he spill his guts that leads to the near distraction of the Imperial Empire.

So he get annoyed that he heard that the Empire signed the contract to ban Talos to save the Empire skin (to fight another day) and starts the war by killing the high king because of it.

If he did not spill his guts out the Empire might have a chance to win and will not having this civil war in the first place.

From what I've gathered, the Thalmor are merely exploiting the situation. Thus the "asset".

Uhm. There's like 26 years between the signing of the WGC and the killing of Torygg (who probably hardly was born when it the great war ended, btw). Pretty long time to be "annoyed"...

No, Ulfric is no Thalmor spy. I think Lyn explains it very clearly above.

He was tortured by the Thalmor and after weeks of interrogation was broken, true. This did not in any way change the outcome of the war since by the time he gave his information the Imperial City had already fallen.

He gets annoyed, yes, but waits 25 years to start the war which means he has been planning his uprising for a long time. He did not hear about the WGC and immediately duel Torygg.

Ulfric is a Nord hero. He is no Thalmor agent, he despises them. The Thalmor only consider the Civil War to be an asset to their cause, they want it to be prolonged for as long as possible without a victor. They don't really want the Stormcloaks or the Empire to win it.

He was tortured into revealing some information. Altho the Thalmor convinced him that they used it to help them take the Imperial City, they had already sacked the city before he broke. So basically what he revealed wasn't useful to them except for the fact that it gave them something else with which to torture him (psychologically).


Um... okay. I think this one has already been addressed, suffice it to say you might want to check the timeline. I'm pretty sure Ulfric heard about the WGC when it was first signed, or shortly thereafter. If the guards in Riften can find out about me killing the Glenmoril witches over in Falkreath within a few hours of my doing it, I gonna go out on a limb and say it didn't take a quarter of a century for news of the WGC to reach Windhelm.


See above. The Dominion had already sacked the Imperial City and forced the retreat of Mede and his army before Ulfric told them anything. But even if that were not the case, he was being tortured. People under torture break, not because they are weak or bad or treasonous or dishonorable. They break because the capacity of sentient beings to withstand pain and suffering at the hands of a merciless abuser is not infinite, that's why torture exists and why the merciless use it.

he broke under torture most do at some point cant realy blame him for that

I really doubt it, but he is playing right into the Thalmor's plan of divide and conquer. They force the Empire to accept peace terms aimed at undermining the unity of the provinces, and Ulfric uses the people's agitation to try and become high king and wages civil war in the province. This has no positive benefits to the Empire and strains their resources further as the Aldmeri gain strength and map the land with their agents.

The Empire has been playing right into the Thalmor's plans for 25 years now. If it's acceptable for them to do it in pursuit of some supposedly worthwhile long term goal, then it's no less acceptable when Ulfric does the same. The whole argument of "he's doing what they want therefore he is bad/naive/stupid/untrustworthy" is nonsense. The Empire is also doing exactly what they want, so either they are just as bad/naive/stupid/untrustworthy as Uflric because of that, or else it's not a valid reason to deride his character and motivations.

I think it's interesting that when it comes to Ulfric, people seem to hold the notion that he might be (most likely is, imo) powerhungry and wants to become High King AGAINST him.

Seriously. Most people in powerful positions want power. Don't you think people running for presidency, people who become prime ministers and so on, want power? That doesn't necessarily mean they are Bad Leaders.

I don't know if Ulfric would be a good High King. Maybe, maybe not. But I think HE thinks he would.

I think it's amusing that, for many in the Imperial camp, Ulfric wanting to be High King of one "backwater" part of Tamriel makes him an arrogant, power-hungry megalomaniac, while the Empire wanting to control the entire freakin' continent is perfectly acceptable. Is a puzzlement.

I think its pretty clear that they're using him and he's perfectly well aware of that

Also note that no one accuses Elisif for being powerhungry. Still, she's the one who pledge allegiance to whoever wins the war - in order to keep her own throne, I presume.

(Actually, I really wonder what will become of her in the future. Right now she's prettys much an inexperienced, whiny brat (no, I'm not to fond of her, or rather, her voice acting ), but given a few years to get some experience and mature a bit - she might be interesting.)

And I gotta wonder how that sits with all the deposed Jarls who sided with the Empire, if the Stormcloaks win. I mean, I don't for one minute think she was in danger of being killed, only of being deposed. No matter which way you play, not a single Jarl pays with his/her life for siding with the enemy, except Ulfric and that's because he's the leader of one faction, not someone who just took one side or the other.

All the Jarls who supported her lost their thrones for doing so, and in the end she meekly agrees to swear fealty to the enemy to avoid the same fate. Personally, I'd be none too happy about that if I were living out my life in her basemant while she goes right on being Jarl of Solitude two floors up in the throneroom.

If I were Ulfric, I wouldn't trust her. He killed her husband, fair challenge or not. She calls him murderer all the time. Leave her free to plot her revenge? I think he underestimates her. (Heh, maybe our characters want to look out as well, then )

Is that supposed to justify it or something? Just because some people behave poorly doesn't mean everyone should.

The difference being that the Empire is aware of it, while Ulfric apparently is not. The ultimate bad guy here is the Thalmor, so Ulfric attacks the... Empire?

Yeah because an army of imperial citizens marching around killing thalmor wouldn't be immediately arrested and executed by the empire for trying to start another war with the thalmor. Can't do one without taking care of the other issue first.

Who says he isn't? I don't know why people think the idea that your enemy wants you to be distracted and weakened by infighting is such a revolutionary concept that even a complete moron wouldn't grasp it. The fact that the Thalmor hope to profit from the conflict doesn't matter. Both the empire and the Stormcloaks have decided that settling the dispute over who should lead Skyrim is more important than papering over with a false peace.

Well if Ulfric had patience and a modicum of astuteness, he would probably get a hint that the WGC only bought an interbellum. But nope, The Thalmor said "Jump", Ulfric said "How high". They know all his angry buttons from his time as a POW. You can see Elenwen pushing them should she stick around at the Season Unending talks. He may not be a manchurian agent, but the end result is the same: Ulfric is a Thalmor tool, and the only way out he gets is the Dragonborn, through siding with him, or against him.


So the Empire should just roll over and let the Stormcloaks break the Empire's back? The Empire was re-arming because they knew it was only an interbellum. The Stormcloaks, goaded by the Thalmor, disrupt those plans.

That's what the Stormcloak rebellion is: A Thalmor plot to disrupt the Empire's rearming. Instead of getting mad at the Thalmor for foisting such unfair demands, they get mad at the Empire for having no choice but to accept. Just as the Thalmor wanted them to. As I said: "Jump!" "How high?"

There's nothing to suggest the empire has any ideas of restarting the war. The legion doesn't make decisions for the empire. If you're preparing for war, you don't freely allow spies to look at all your plans. You don't take 30 years to rebuild a rather token force and sit by as the enemy tortures and kills your people. 30 years was WAY more than enough.

Of course they had a choice. They had won- the Dominion's attack force was decimated- and instead of pressing his advantage, Mede gave them almost everything they had asked for to begin with. He's using the provinces as bargaining chips to save Cyrodiil, probably because he doesn't have the poltiical support at home to do otherwise. That puts him in a bind, to be sure, but Skyrim doesn't have to sit by and take it.

Yes, an interbellum for both sides. The Empire is re-arming but so are the Aldmeri Dominion and the Aldmeri Dominion definitely have an advantage since they can see it happening and adjust accordingly. This interbellum serves no purpose other than to further increase the battering the Empire will get/would have gotten next time around (The Dovahkiin basically makes sure that AD victory is impossible). Ulfric's rebellion then changes this by giving the Thalmor another faction to worry about, a faction that was working in their favour until the Fall of Solitude when they became a huge threat since a united Skyrim along with a united Hammerfell is a far bigger threat than a weak (yet unified) Empire led by weak leaders which have still not won a war in their 200 years in power and are in honesty to blame for the current state of Tamriel.