Have another look at Doom 3, it's not as far removed from the originals as you think.

I don't mind id trying new things, they always have before and they're not exactly a team to stay away from the ballsy calls but what I would really hate, to the point of me not even trying the game, is incorporating lots of 'modern shooter' tropes into the game. Not for the sake of it being 'retro' or anything like that but alot of the modern shooter mechanics are conflicting with what I consider Doom.

Two weapon system? Great they've just managed to svck all the fun out of the weapons by removing the metagame of picking the right weapon for the right type of enemies as well as restricting your gameplay options by controlling the weapons available

Regenerating Health? Yeah it's not like the levels in all previous doom games have been fantastically designed as a war of attrition against the players health, now it's just a case of trying to overwhelm the player with each individual encounter and no more frantically running around in the dark hoping you come across a medkit before your next encounter.

Intrusive Exposition? I didn't replay Rage at all until I figured out there was that scenario mode in the scorchers DLC because there was no way in hell I was going to sit through all the dialogue (that I had already experienced and now knew the story) and crap quests to get to the real missions. Despite quite a few of them being some of the best fps encounters this generation IMO

Skinned fetch quest objectives? They're just a way of making the player traverse the same environment after they've reached a certain point. If you're going to do it (and lots of games have done it well in the past) have some balls and don't hide it behind some forced exposition. Even Doom 3 (which had a much more focused approach to the narrative) wasn't afraid to just say "nope this door is locked go find its key".

Objective Markers? No FPS should need them, it just covers up for poor level design. By all means they should have a hint system if they think it needs it, but make it optional and not always on the screen.

This is BoguS IMO; it's also ageist, and overly presumptive.

• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAC5SeNH8jw
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzOL5bre060
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhdfNlqRlgs
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOI00fgbx-Q
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNx3w954mUQ
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6FfhcXS4MQ
• (I'd love to link those Youtube vids of the grandmother having a ball playing Deadspace, and Skyrim; but she swears the Fbomb, every other sentence.

What you describe is also true of books (as well as games), but what you miss is that an author (or a developer) can strike the target twice with sequels and despite the changes in the new work, it can still affect the reader/player in the right way; It doesn't matter if the experience is unique to every player (and their opinions different) ~if the work is spot on as it should be, the effect for the player can be spot on as well ~even if they are affected differently than others.

If one person cries at film, and another feels pride, and another feels guilty ~~ all from the same film; then it's very possible to pull the same heartstrings in a sequel; do it right and those same people could react the same way again, and all like the film for their own reasons. I believe it's this way with games (and art; and music).

It does not require the same identical game as DOOM1, it only requires careful inclusion and careful omission, so as not to unintentionally damage the experience with aspects that go against the grain of it.

On this we agree.

Yeah, except everyone has their opinion of what things damage the "grain of it"
That's why it's not so easy unless you do a literal reinterpretation, which in the end would just feel like a nice graphics mod.

Edit: Whatever the new game comes out to be though, I'm quite certain they know it has to be fast paced action and shotguning demons in the face. The only thing that worries me is that the levels might end up linear like Rage's, since Carmack believes in that cinematic experience (that's why it's silly to quote Carmack as knowing how to design a game, even Doom. He has terrible ideas )

Well ya see Doom and Doom 2 are very strange games. The combat is very formal and strange as well.

As has been pointed out, a lot of the fire in these games are fairly slow moving fireballs, there are rockets as well, of several flavors. It 's not a coincidence that the deadliest enemies are the chaingunners, sergeants and spiders, the larger variety. They all fire bullets and that is treated a bit differently than the rest of the projectiles/fireballs. This "hitscan" stuff is aimed at the player and hits instantly, so no real dodging, although moving as they shoot sorta works.

All this weaponry will hurt and agro any other monster, not the attackers own species, but all others. This makes advanced Doom and Doom 2 combat a very formal and not particularly real exercise. We can dodge anything that is not "hitscan", as it's fairly slow moving, and we can use that to target, with the dodged fireball/rocket a different monster. It will start a fight with the one that hit it and we can move on to the next problem. Really your ability to move is most of Doom and Doom 2 combat, that and knowing how everything works.

Only a few of us really understand this, so targeting a game that emphasizes these characteristics might be a bit of a hard sell.

Stalker works because it allows you to realistically and gradually go from being a weak, poorly equipped, and inexperienced player to a deadly badass, very well equipped and with hard won knowledge of how the environment and various kinds of animals, mutants, enemies and allies operate.

I think that is most of what is so addictive about it.

For the love of God, go find yourself a Stalker forum already.

A deist eh'. We are discussing "what makes Doom what it is", in this thread anyway. After, what I thought might be a useful post about actual Doom play, I thought it might be interesting to show the usefulness of the Stalker approach to game play evolution as the game is played, some of what makes Stalker what it is, as contrast to the very simple Doom approach.

I understand you don't like me or Stalker, try to imagine how much I care? I doubt you can.

to me in the simplest of terms this mechanic red square game
and of course shooting things while dodging things

That's why i think id should try to recreate that feeling we had when we played Doom the first time in '93.
That won't work by giving us the same now they gave us back then, because back then what they gave us was something new, rebellious, shocking and politically incorrect.
And this combination of attributes was the main reason for Doom's success.

So what we need for Doom 4 is something that is new, rebellious, shocking and politically incorrect today!

considering that doom is the granddady of the known shooter genre something new is expected of course production values will grant that the creative process will try to make it as engaging as possible these were the froms tos are content creation content that will please the old school and bring new players to the story that started it all a marine and his shotgun against hordes of enemies the lone wolf and cub since everything is continuation of what was to what will be I would start with the tutorial look up down etc follow the sign than movement than both how to please those that played everything level design and gameplay mechanics start with red square game and follow with guy ritchies surprise a level for call of duty fans a level for prey fans a level for skyrim fans gameplay mechanics that mirror doom then rage then prey and of course a well written story that immerses the player without suffocating him with overexposure

Which would give us nothing but a mod of something old like SikkMod does.
Why would anybody pay money for a mod if he could get it for free?
Look at all the criticism towards Doom 3 BFG.


I read a lot of "professional" reviews, user reviews and (news and forum-) comments about games.
There are always people complaining about a new feature in a sequel that in their view "destroys the franchise".
And the number of people acting like this is heavily increasing recently.
Instead of giving a warm welcome to a new addition of a game franchise, they complain about elements they dislike even if they're optional or worse, just based on rumors.
These voices spread quickly over the net and affect sales heavily.
I guess this is a new phenomenon based on the fact that nowadays, thanx to the internet, everybody has an opinion.
An opinion that might even be based on somebody else's opinion based on somebody else's opinion who has never played a game or just played the demo.

Raitings on big internets seller's websites for recent games mirror this phenomenon.

One bad (and probably false opinion) can get the ball rolling.
We saw this with Rage, Dead Space 3, Resident Evil 6, Gears of War Judgement and so on.

Especially hardcoe fans can be quite fanatic about minor details that "make the franchise what it is".
Hence this thread.




Ahh, i see. Thanks for the info.

For the love of God, go find yourself a Stalker forum already.

by the way a ultimate expression of appreciation is creating something new with what you were presented to interact with those that can do those that cant well they try to express what made their experience so memorable and try to have more of that experience

That wasn't a serious suggestion, just that they could if they wanted ~~Meaning they could do a lot of things. But imagine a Doom4 that could read doom 1, 2 and 3 levels ~and convert them to doom4; with Doom4 assets. Never perfect, but playable and reasonably close.


With good reason IMO; it's been happening a lot lately.

Nope.Be assured, the old timer fans you're so warm to will be whining on and on about the new monster designs, art direction, and many many more things.

A mesh of Doom2 and Doom3 would make a nice Doom4, but complainers will complain

Edit: You may not want an exact literal re-interpretation but know that there are people out there that do, and those are the people I hope id knows to ignore

I can accept that as possible. However, I still have a hard time believing there is anyone out there wanting graphics fidelity over gameplay fidelity... I also doubt anyone is demanding auto-assisted aim for elevation. But I can easily believe that there would be players that would hate the hi-res detailed models if they inflicted low frame rates on them.

How cool would it be to include Dx7 style character low-poly models for use in a custom death-match mode for that extra bit of an edge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKz2VRCkz-s

No you don't get it... we actually had someone here demanding that Doom4 have no jumping! They also wanted the screen to warp awkwardly with the fish-eye effect you get in software rendered Doom.

Oh, AND I've seen alot of people demand centered weapons ... and it gets worse, believe me. From plenty of people.

LOL they could have a low poly character model as one of the skins you can choose from. If not, I can imagine a classic Doom guy model being one of the first mods being made

What would be the point? That would give you the same maps you've been playing for the last twenty years now with new and maybe flawed graphics.


Do you mean the complaints are justified?
I don't think so.
Most of the complaints are just pure rubbish based on the fact that gamers listen to much to propaganda and therefore get biased before a game get's released instead instead of making up their mind themselves with the final product.
None of the games i mentioned in my predecessing post are in any way as bad as some people try to put them.

I'd even say that Duke Forever was better than most people say.
It just wasn't what they had expected due to all the crap they've read over the years.

But don't get me wrong: COD's got to go.
We need something fresh instead of permanent repetition.
But digging out stuff from twenty years ago just means a longer cycle of repetion and won't generate any excitement with the majority of gamers today.

My point is that id made a good job with introducing the flashlight in Doom3.
It looked like Doom, it still felt like Doom in a way but it had this additional gameplay feature people are still talking about TODAY!

They need a feature like that to go with Doom4.

What i expect from core gameplay from Doom4 is what id always delivered:
First person shooters with perfect controllability, good player/camera physics, excellent gunplay and a well balanced shoot / evade system.
Rage was excellent in that respect and it's discs are still rotating in my disc drive in 2013 for that reason.

As long as id doesn't turn Doom 4 into some 3rd person view, cover based shooter on rails with lots of scripted action and movie sequences, im good.

Btw.: Stuff like auto assisted aim for elevation is something that an old accomplice of mine actually was wishing for in a new Doom.
But that was prior to Doom3's release in 2004.

I believe the answer is knowing your audience and meeting and guiding their skill gratification curve through immersive composite gameplay 3rd person enables more freedom to the designers you see more to control more however my personal preference is fps as I said I met doom and thanks to doom I did 32 seconds in the red square game production values can be a bit of a hinder reason being you have a succesfull product with set standards and you know the audience (which is a fitting word regarding your belief about rail shooting) is always after the quick fix too many set pieces instead of longer game play can and probably will alienate your player base.

by the way gentleman let me tell you about myself I am a 36 year old librarian from Turkey(the country which shares the name with the animal) , trained as a lawyer with a postgraduate degree on banking and financial law I here to express myself about a pop culture icon I hope in no way that what I have written has offended you

The point would be access to hundreds (thousands?) of Doom levels. Nobody has played them all.


So would I. I thought the gear/machine map was awesome; I didn't like the 'glue'/ filler levels, and the hokey vehicle physics were only suitable for the RC car.

I absolutely love getting a fresh new game ~~I absolutely loathe getting a fresh new interpretation of an established game that is geared for a different audience and includes trendy features that don't always apply to the original concept.

*And it's been happening a lot lately.

No complaints here; If you add pitch black areas then it needs a light.


I agree I prefer 3rd person games...
but not in any DOOM sequel I don't.

Umm I have nearly a thousand of em' and I have played most of them. I try to give them away, but hey it seems most people are all talk and no action.

Oh yeah, thanks for breaking the board. It was better before.

I'd try them out, just send me a link if you please. I mean I'd rather have a package then get them all one by one if you're allright with that.

A PM for you.