sorry dronk posting again tough I enjoy it this time nowhere nearly as hammered as the last time

Well I did give you an out. I can tell you truthfully that I hadn't the slightest interest if anyone else wanted to play it ~all that mattered was that I would; and that I could see the potential for an entry level mapper that not coincidentally could enable the mass volume of DOOM maps to still be accessed and give a twist to fond memories using the most recent version of DOOM.

I think it would be a kick to play the original DOOM levels (and have them included on the DOOM 4 DVD); not at great expense to the time spent on the main game, but if they had such a thing as that wad-interpreter, then why not run it on the original wads as well?
They can include DOOM 1 & 2 if they want; and if they did ~why not let it's wad be available in their interpreter... what better way to show it off.

I would bet there are even a few that would but DOOM4 just for that feature alone.
(They should care if it's only a few, when that's not the point of including it?)


I don't agree. I think that [were this to exist] that people would not only use it, use it creatively, but also that there would be those that created new tiles to use with it.

I'm only halfway through the game, but while I like the core gameplay ~so far the maps are not what impressed me.

So what? (really)
I picked the first random doom3 screenshot I saw that featured a curved hallway. My image choice means nothing, and serves as concept only.

And you say this knowing that it's Zenimax/Bethesda, and knowing about the construction kits they release for their most popular titles? The scripting tutorials and Navemesh tutorials... You think DOOM should be spared the free toolset?

Too bad we all know the more likely result: no modular interpreter will be made.

Good thing, too, in my opinion. They need to focus on making the actual game as good as possible, and using brushes like in Doom3's editor is all that is needed for beginner mappers. There is absolutely nothing difficult about using them.

Have you tried distributing a Rage map yet lol

It's not just about streamlining the creation process, but also the finding and installing them, that's why Steam Workshop integration has been so successful.

The Rage tool kit is an absolute mess, in its current state it's impossible to actually even finish a map because you can't use the the AI pathing system compiler (AAS), mod installs are all over the place because it's really hard to know what files are overwritten with each mod, you pretty much have to reinstall the giant tool kit every time you change project and on top of that the 64bit version of the game (the only one mods support) is by far the most unstable and buggy of the two (and 32 bit Rage was never the most stable application in the first place). They might all seem like little annoyances but bundled together they'll pretty much ensure it never sees a decent modding community regardless of how appealing the underlying engine is.

Letting a couple of programmers loose on the tool kit for a month or two could be the difference between Doom 4 being another $60 finished in 8 hours, throw away fps and being a practically endless supply of free original content for the gamer which does drive sales. Developers do profit from mods, look at something like Dayz, Counter-Strike or even DOTA, people will buy your game just to play the awesome free mods if you mange to kick up a vibrant modding community.

Just look at CS:GO or Skyrim and see how many people are interested in custom maps and mods when it's integrated correctly

Stalker is very much alive. That is a lot of of it's attraction to many of us. It's a killer game, somewhat buggy at first but no one has ever implemented an AI even in the same ballpark.

The mods just build on what's there and because the game is wide open we can do a lot with it.

Was busy playing CoP. So nice to get back to Stalker again. Bought a used DVD of Shadow to mesh with some of the mods better than the Steam version does. $10 with shipping.

You clearly missed the fact that I was talking about Doom3's editor, not Rage's.

They made the Doom3 editor perfect and enough to get mods up and running in seconds.

No need for fancy modular tools and other things that will never make something that actually looks great. Brushes are all you need, and brushes have made amazing Doom3 maps.

I know. And i don't want to criticize you for that.
But looking at the situation with id right now, my view is that they should look forward and not backwards.
That's where our views differ. No more no less.


And that's where i think you're part of a minority that is not well served today.
I'm not saying that they should never ever include such a feature.
I'm saying they won't likely add such a feature because it won't give them profit.
Times change. Games surpassed movies in terms of making money. And in terms of costs...


Of course there would be people using such a feature.
But how many? Does that justify lots of working hours spend on code only very few people will execute?
Again: Games are big business and not that underground scene anymore like they were in the '90s.


Not sure which game you're talking about but the games i mentioned, i mentioned to show up the differences between old '90s detail and what's going on today.
I don't think that there is any basis on discussing the fact that creating a map in a modern game envirnment takes way more time than one in a game from the '90s.
Look at user content for Doom I/II and Doom3:
There's still way more content available and being made for the old games than for Doom 3.
What do you think is the reason for that if not complexity?


I'm not an expert on Beth's titles. I'm not a role playing gamer.
But you said it yourself: They give construction kits for their most POPULAR games.
That means they don't give you those right from the start. They give you those later to extend the live of a succesful franchise.
Since it keeps them from selling additional DLC, they won't give you toolkits at the beginning.
Again: Free content doesn't generate profit.

And something else comes to mind:
Look at the differences between Rage and Skyrim:

Rage: 21 GB of data.
Skyrim: about 4 GB of data.

Role playing games always rely heavily on auto generated and therefore repeating visuals.
Role players are used to such reduced detail, fps players are not.
I guess you will agree that adding some scripts that use existing graphics data for a game is way less challenging than creating huge amounts of new content to suit the needs of idTech 5.

We're already beyond post limit and i fear this thread is ready to be closed down.How about continue discussing secondary features for a Doom game (types of multiplayer, mod tools, etc) with a new poll in a new thread?

I know, and I'm not criticizing you for it; but your have been saying to me what my point is ~and I'm saying to you, 'that was not my point'.

Painkiller was a great shooter ~but it's maps and model detail did not at all impress [me].

Doom 2 was a better game? Doom 2 had been around longer than Doom3? The temerity of the earlier fanbase?

You mention complexity, but I don't think it's the complexity itself; but rather the diminishing returns due to the complexity.

Bethesda has made the same game for 18 years; incrementally refining it's look as the technology improves, and reshaping it to suit the modern consumer.

Their recent titles ship with access to the toolset online. IIRC Morrowind shipped with the toolset on the disk; [however since my copy is a re-release, I don't know if the first release shipped with the tools].

Rage is an ambition exception. In general RPGs are harder to create than shoo any other style of game. The content needed is vast. Baldur's Gate 2 (2000) was 2? gigs [compressed install file], and the Witcher [2008] was nearly 14? [compressed].

This is patently false except where it's expected... RPG games do use archetypal characters in same way shooters do; but they have far more need for it.


**EDIT: I see what you mean about the post count. I was about to make a second thread just now, but... Should it really be a 2nd "What makes Doom Doom?" I think the conversation has changed. So I'll let either/any of you (who wish to continue the discussion) make [and title] the next thread for this.

Post limit reached, time for a lock. See for yourself how you want to continue this.