I think this might be kind of missing the point of TES gameplay. I don't really pay attention to my character's level (I do more now that we have perks we're working towards but that aside...) Even so, if your focus is leveling up then you're never 'confined' to one area, hitting something with a sword always increases your 1h skill level, even if it's a low level creature. Likewise, something hitting you once for 1 damage will level your armor skill as quickly as something hitting you once for 50 damage.

Now I do agree that Skyrim handles scaling a lot better than Oblivion ever did. Yet, even Morrowind had a 'minimalist' view towards level scaling which was that when you walked into a Daedric ruin, most of the time it would have scamps at level 3 and golden saints at level 30, which worked pretty well. Still scamps were pretty tough for a level 3 character, and there would also be something even scarier waiting around, which wasn't scaled incase you went to some place 'early'. So I guess in principle I agree with you that 'NO' level scaling is a bad idea, and the topic title of this thread may have been a bit flawed but at the same time I think the 'less is more' attitude towards level scaling that Morrowind had was best, though don't think Skyrim is all that bad in this area

This.

People would pretty much be doing the same quests in about the same order.

"Can't join the mages college until level 15 since the draugr boss in Saarthal is level 15. Can't join the Companions until level 25 since the first Silver Hand leader is level 25. Can't go west when leaving Helgen cave because there's a level 28 bear lurking in the bushes, etc.

First playthrough might be fun, the rest, will not, as you'll have to do the same things in the same order.

Level scaling or no level scaling both have it's pro's and it's con's. I remember getting bored of exploring in Morrowind once I reached a certain level as I could spend days on days looking for things that was a challenge. The only challenge I could find easy was the main quest as it seemed to scale, other areas, and dungeons would be far between. And it bored the crap out of me after some time. I ended up googling the locations where I could find a challenge rather then go through the tedious process of exploring every piece of the map. Oblivion took level scaling to a whole new bad level as bandits in full daedric armor wanted to rob me for 100gold, which made the game boring. In Oblivion OOO and other mods fixed this easy after some time tho.

Of all the vanilla systems I do prefer Skyrim, it reminded me a bit of how Oblivion felt with mods. I could keep fights interesting, but also meet things I had to run away from until I got more powerful. Once you hit certain level the scaling is not as obvious and you are often more powerful. But not in a way where I feel like I have to google locations to find a challenge.

Replacing real walls with Theoretical walls doesn't change the fact that it's a wall from a game-design perspective.


In a lot of ways, a "Linear" game makes for a more compelling game though. Like I said before (If people would read everything to get context, instead of responding immediately to the bit that pissed them off) more hand-written content means a better story, contextual or otherwise.

The best mix of "Scaled" and "Nonscaled" was Morrowind's design, scaled creatures (exceptions always exist in context) with static, but more importantly, hand-written NPC's.

This ^

No level scaling would make this game exactly what it should be. Its a shame we will never see that again.

No level scaling can only be used to a certain extent... Such as in maybe only certain areas in a game. If the whole game had set levels to everything it would get very boring running into enemies drastically lower than your level. You can then just say grind to level 20 then breeze through everything

My preference is for mixed level scaling. I don't want to be herded by high level sheep dogs, at the same time, I want some areas to be harder than others. I would find a statically leveled game progressively more boring on each playthrough.

If I head about a dangerous dungeon, I want it to be really dangerous. If the badlands to the east are really dangerous, I want them to be really dangerous. But...I don't want them to be static, I want them to be dangerous relative to my level at the time that I enter them. I'm expecting a challenge, so give me a challenge. Once I've beaten it, don't keep scaling it up. I think Skyrim does a pretty good job, though it's not nearly challenging enough.

This is the ideal system (and it's pretty close to what Skyrim has implemented).

Everyone asking for no scaling at all is completely ignoring the problems with it.

Those are quotes for Oblivion Daedric gear. In Morrowind, if you found anything Glass or Daedric before level 10 you were set, especially if you had access to Mournhold.

You left off a decimal point. It's 40,000 for a Daedric longsword and 20,000 for a shortsword in Morrowind.

I know New Vegas was kind of like that, some areas had deathclaws and it was tough for a low-level character to explore those areas. But it forces the player to stay within a boundary, for a truely open world game, I would say level scaling is necessary.

A little bit of random is good, too.

Statically leveled mobs add diversity of challenge across the map, and add logic to the game world.

Level scaled mobs add variety and challenge to each playthrough.

Random mods add unpredictability, jump-scares, and sometimes, comedy.

The best system uses all three.

Wish there was an option at hte very beginning of the game, Level Scaling on/off.

It would be as awesome as Morrowind? It had slight level scaling as far as I remember, but nothing even remotely as close as Oblivion/Skyrim.

Hell yes. That is the game I thought I was buying, with their "Level scaling is still present, bu ttheire are some areas that are higher level than others" and minimum level [censored].

Yeah [censored] it is. Bethesda have no idea how to make a game like that.

That's basically how i play ... No one forces you to level and add perks ...
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1359145-staying-at-level-1-and-never-level-up/

Ok, maybe my lack of maths Reading skills are not up to scratch

I'd like it at lower levels but it'd get boring at high levels.

The best way to solve the problem you have brought up is simple make the quests longer and more detailed, this is how they handled it it Morrowind, allow me to elaborate

If you join the Companions they will give you smaller jobs until you have proven yourself and then they will give you tougher assignments and then tougher assignments and so forth, this will make sure the Companions truly believe you are up to the task (although it's quite possible your not) This makes sure you aren't sent on any missions to ridiculously dangerous ( who sends a level 5 to go kill Alduin? when the Blades found you they should have made sure you had been trained!) This also makes quest lines much longer and the plots more detailed, which by popular opinion is better.

This is not to say That you will never get a quest which is too tough for you, but whats the fun if you never run into anything too tough for you?

So the true answer to the problem you have provided is to make the quest lines more detailed and the plots longer in order to ensure that when you enter deeper levels of Saarthal that you have a decent understanding of magic in stead of just knowing one or two spells.

no lvl scaling the game will become boring very fast
no lvl scaling means you only need to do some powergamming first few lvls and the rest is death easy or do what people did in the old Baldur gates games orthe never winter series
create a character play the first few lvls safe character and restartthe game with that saved character which was now higher in lvl and gear
repeat till you reach your max lvl

only downside to lvl scaling is the item rewards , i honestly think if you get a item as a reward it should be unique and not another glass sword of frost or whatever the AI can think of

also the whole game would be very very liniear with little or no re playibility and that is just what beth tries to avoid

But it's already very linear. You always start near Riverwood. There are not multiple ways to finish a quest, and nothing really changes in the world from our actions.

true you always start in riverwood it is the tutorial dungon , but nobody forces you to go to white run or any other place afterwards , if you wanted you can avoid all the cities and their quests and just wonder around forever atleast you can choose the quests and story lines in the order you want them if you want to start any quests that is

there is no challenge in powergamming your way up if there was no lvl scaling you would never be able to have the freedom to go and explore and discover new and fascinating caves or dungons

The way level scaling was implemented in Skyrim is ok in my opinion, could be a bit better but it is better than no level scaling like in Morrowind imo (still I would like to play it again with MGSO, damn CTDs...).

The thing that bothers me though is that next to no enemy has got enchanted gear with the exception of weapons. Would it honestly be so immersion breaking when a bandit chief had some enchanted boots/armor? (Although I am not quite sure, if this is just a mod issue or if vanilla has the same problem ^^)

So you would prefer that the stores always have ebony and daedric armor? That would make smithing even more irrelevant.