When I see ppl happy about level-scaling and getting everything for free on a plate... It makes me angry. It's incredible how people these days are so lazy. No challange at all.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Distant_Memories

This is a perfect example how pathetic the quests in Skyrtim can be.

I remember taking a quest in MW. When I tried it on a low lvl I was butchered in a matter of seconds... but later when I was strong enough to do it I was rewarded heavily.

I know, right? I hate seeing people enjoying their gaming experience, too. It makes me want to kick puppies.

@Chart4ever Not everyone on this thread who supports level scaling wants things to be easy. I support level scaling because I want things to remain challenging at high levels. Without scaling, there would be too many areas of the world that would just be trivial at high levels (or just empty like Morrowind where things do not respawn indoors or underground).

yes and yes.
Although Oblivion had the worst level scaling this side of Dragon Age. Morrowind's was way better, I prefer a more natural, the closer you are to a safe zone, the easier stuff is. The deeper you go into the woods, the more dangerous SET AREA LEVELs style.

When you look at scaling in MMOs for example, you see things like Instanced Dungeons with "Hard Modes" those games tend to have horrible balance.
When you look at old school MMOs like Everquest with no instancing, the balance is actually fun, predictable after a while, but fun when new.

Scaling = Predictable balance that never really changes. Certain mobs are hard every time, other mobs are easy ever time, from lvl 10 -70. No change in dynamic. that gets boring

It bothers me also that there isn't anyone walking around in a set of ebony or daedric armor prior to the apporpriate level. I dont think it should be commmon, but shouldn't someone have it? If you traveled to ghost gate in Morrowind and snuck around even at an early level you could aquire a nice set of Glass Armor from the Armigors Barracks.

Level-scaling is a necessary evil if there is to be any challenge for high-level characters, however not all entities need to scale. Level-scaled unique items, on the other hand, are problematic; the tier of the item is fixed upon receipt thereof, so if you get one at a low level you're stuck with one of the crappy versions since it doesn't update as you gain levels.

Scaled generic items are not as big a deal, although I would like to see the quality of the item not being linked to the character's level. The problem with this, of course, is that there are no limitations on use thereof for low-level characters. Granted you'd be missing perks and a fair amount of the related skill, but the quality of top-end items is so high relative to the sorts of opposition you'd actually want to fight at low levels that it would be a huge advantage for the one finding it.

One poster above (DarksideEric, I think) suggested a mix of leveled and non leveled enemies. That might work to allow some NPCs to be wearing Ebony or Glass Armor early in the game. The only issue I see with having a few pieces of the stuff lying around somewhere is it would be too easy to steal at lower levels (like you apparantly did in Morrowind). But nonlevelled NPC's wearing it would be presumably very hard to kill at any level so that would stop most low level PC's from obtaining it too easily.

Yes. This is a pet peeve of mine because it encourages players to put off certain quests until later levels so they can get a better version of the unique loot. I wish they would make the unique items level with your character so you got the wealer version if you completed the quest at lower levels but your weaker version turned into a more powerful version as you leveled up (like they did with the KOTN weapons/armor). Seems like that could be explained by your ability to make good use of the item increasing as you became more experienced.

But the exploration would have a greater meaning and You would feel the need to advance to see MORE. As it is now I dont feel that "need", coz I know that even while playing on Master I gonna kick the **** out of every enemy. I don't feel the adventure anymore. I'm a God and I can go and do whatever I want whenever I want. There is no from Zero to Hero objective. For example, at some point the Dragons become so annoying that I just want to pass around them (they are like giant Cliffracers). In previous games when I aquired an Artifact I was so proud of myself... now most of them lie in a chest coz I can easily craft a better weapon . The quest guide You like a little child with the Compass and Quest Arrows. You can turn it off to some degree but not completely. Why? Coz the Journal doesn't exist anymore.

I see your point as well. But why not put it on a friendly NPC that is killable, but would still put some people off because they would not kill an innocent? Just looking at options.

I am all for improved difficulty sliders and immersive HUD options. I play with the HUD turned completely off most of the time. I too wish there were a better journal and better directions from the game world so you could find stuff through exploring. But I see those as different issues from level scaling.

a bit of enemy scaling is no big deal for me, but, the lack of high level enemies is. there's no excuse for not having the creativity to include more diverse and unique enemies, esp., at higher levels.

the scaled unique items offense is unforgivable and needs to be done away with. not being able to place unique items out of fear for early ownership is no excuse.

I'd still play.

Sure, as long as the "friendly" was tough as nails so he would be a hard kill at low levels. Although in SKyrim, where most of the tougher friendly NPC's are Nords and Imperial Soldiers, there are probably not that many friendly NPC's who would be appropriate candidates for glass or heavy armor. It would look kinds funny on a Stormcloak or an Imperial soldier. But someone like Balgruuf's Dark Elf Housecarl would look fine in Ebony Armor, although she is essential, so you would not be able to kill her.

I agree that people should have a choice how they want to play. However...

Instead of making 4 difficulty options based on enemy HP and DAMAGE, they could introduce an option to turn on/off level scaling, journal etc. Then everyone would be happy. The casuals and hardcoe players.

the difficulty adjustment bar should be a staple in all rpg's.

improving the a.i. should be the goal of every developer. SHOULD.

there should be many more customizable options in all rpg games. it's ridiculous that skyrim went the 'mainstreamed' route.

It would have the same problems that New Vegas has. It would be a lot of fun at low levels but you'll be a god at high levels. That to me is the main problem with no level scaling, the game gets too easy at high levels. It would also make the game a lot more linear, another problem that New Vegas has but only for the 1st 10 hours.

Skyrim's scaling is fine and a step in the right direction.

And this was balanced in Morrowind, if you snuck around and stole some Daedric armor or something, it was usually way too heavy to equip at low levels. Or your skill was really low and you'd lose all kinds of STA

the problems you state are EASILY fixed: creativity. how many times do you die in nvegas? what do you consider "easy?"

The problems that no level scaling has can be problamatic late game. Late game can be an issue due to the fact that you are overpowering and there's really nothing close to your level. To bring up New Vegas, the only enemy at high levels that could be a problem is Deathclaws and those go away with the right weapon. At least with Skyrim, it can still be a challenge at higher levels due to scaling although only up to level 50. No Level Scaling can make you feel more rewarded for going through a tough area, where as with Skyrim you don't really get rewarded as much although you still have the chance to get something powerful.

There are pros and cons to both systems but Scaling has a more balanced difficulty then no scaling where the difficulty flexs from really easy to really hard.

the intended purpose of level scaling was to keep challenge consistent within the game.
Morrowind's level scaling was great until you got too powerful. A major gripe a lot of old RPG players actually had was that they got too powerful. In Morrowind's case you'd eventually reach a point where nothing would kill you, and any secrets weren't woth getting anyway. It sounds like such a stupid thing to complain about, but in the years leading up to Oblivion there was a lot of outcry for devs to find a solution to this.

thus, we have the horrid nightmare that is Level scaling. In our revolution of a semi-irritating flaw indicative of RPGs we created a monster far more vast and pervasive.

*reads rest of thread*

okay well I clearly came late to the party

Exactly

i'm not a programmer, but, can you not develop a system where certain level enemies can be tagged as 'scaled' while those below that line, whatever, are not?

however, there should always be enemies that only appear during certain late character levels of a game, imo.

generic enemy scaling and the difficulty slider bar should be staples, imo.

QFT

sadly neither side works well. what about areas that are classed as easy, and have their own scale of difficulty, areas classed as hard and have their own scales.

for Example: let's say the first region, the easy one, is a forest, who's main easy enemy is a wolf. Once you reach a certain level, the region would begin spawning another easy, but slightly less so, a bear. This would be in addition to a wolf, or maybe a pack of wolves at the incrased level. But that region would not spawn anything higher than a bear after that level.

then the next region, let's say a desert. It's a bit harder, it's initial main harder enemy may be a giant lizard. once you reach a certain level, the region would start spawing, say, a giant scorpion. The logic would apply here as the previous region. It would keep going up from there with each region.

also, I'm using this in a binary sense, obviously there'd be multiple enemies for each region, not just two.

as for items, I think it may be necessary to just have the developers manually insert special items. The Morrowind system of this was pretty good. Make it difficult for poeple to get, but let it be beneficial once they have it. People complain that low-level characters that get these unique items break the game, or hurt its design.

regardless of whether it was ethical or not, it's still the player's right to decide. So what if it's going to be overpowered for a low-level character, that was part of the beauty of Morrowind. Make it difficult, like Morrowind made it to get Deadric, or those Dwarven boots of levitation, it'll make the reward that much sweeter for the player.