TES has always been a series of games without stats. If stats were introduced then it would no longer be special.

Er.. wait.. I did that wrong.

This.

Some people like myself actually prefer more complex gameplay and more micro-management within reason because it just adds to the fantasy role-playing which is the whole point of TES (being who you want to be).

To be honest I dont know why everyone is argueing about skills and stats because I will be having both in the game and it is that simple (thats the advantage of having the PC version). As far as I understand its a good idea to have both skills and stats because you could give a sword to the strongest person in the world but that would NOT mean they know jack about actually using it effectively. The same can be said about giving a spell tome to an unintelligeant individual, they may have the spell and the instructions on how to use it but that does not mean they will read the instructions accurately.

what an idiot after you argue with him he goes and makes grammar changes?! what is he a 3rd grade teacher?! textbook sign of a complete idiot.

I disagree i find the interest in the game world not the stupid stat screen. I'm interested in seeing myself more powerful in the game while i'm stabbing someone in the back rather than seeing it in my stats. Good thing they make mods, then we can all be happy. I for one will not use anything that adds stats back just an annoyance for me and i find it to be less immersive. I always find it funny that people want more realism and immersion then want stats. Last i checked i can't go find my strength number.

In the biz we call that an http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu8DJnR9zNw! Your rebuttal jdfury? Who I imagine is typing furiously.

My character had contracted a disease at one point and I would have had no idea had it not been for villagers telling me over and over that I "didn't look well". What the heck Bethesda !? Give me my character stats menu!

Spell Menu > Active Effects tab.

yeah he's probably gonna retype it like a hundred times to make sure its as close to perfect as possible..the sad thing is the content of his counter argument will probably something more pitiful than the "your vs you're" rebuttal he previously had.

Which leads me back to your ... uh... unorthodox interpretation of "I'm thrilled" for bitterness.

I wouldn't even consider this an argument as far as the thread topic goes. I think your synopsis of immersion vs. simulation was fairly insightful.

When I was younger, and I was sitting around a table with five or six other people rolling dice and writing on graph paper, the extra numbers from a "simulation" style of play helped to bring my character and the world he or she inhabited into sharper focus.

But now they have these cool things that give you visual, audio, and, in some cases, tactile feedback. Dare I say... it "simulates" what it might be like to walk around in a fantasy world. And since the developers have been kind enough to do a great deal of that heavy lifting for me, I'm that much happier to let them do so while I actually... you know... play the game.

Which brings me all the way back to my original contribution suggesting that less number crunching on the player end leads to greater immersion--which I favor.

Or, to simplify further. Eff attributes. Kudos, Bethesda.

Well, that goes to show I've not spent enough time adjusting to the new UI. Thanks. I guess I'm still use to the menu style from Morrowind and Oblivion, which made way more sense to me than all the scrolling through text you have to do in Skyrim.

No no it should be fairly easy.

Try changing the keybinds to fit your playstyle .

For example I use:

Spell menu = right arrow key
Inventory = left arrow key
Stats (perks and skills) = up arrow key
Map = down arrow key

The reason I bound the keys this way is because of how the UI appears on different sides of the screen (this fact actually stays in my mind so its easy to do most of the time).

For the record, I love both Pen and Paper/Table Top RPGs, and cRPGs.

All I have to say to the subject of removing the stats is this:

"They removed stats? Hummm, I barely noticed. I was too busy having fun in the game."



Stats, or lack there of, do not make a great game. Skyrim has good game play, and fairly solid mechanics backing it. I enjoy it just fine without stats. It threw me off for a bit at the start, but then I just didn't care. "They're not there, so I don't need to pay attention to them. Time to go off and do something else. Oh look, a butterfly!"


Would having stats have made the game better? No. It might make some aspects different, but it would still have been a good game either way. The new mechanics work. Stats were merely fluff. They were padding between the character and game play. The developers removed them, and found they can do their desired gameplay without the stats. If they can achieve what they want without it, then why include it?

Kind of like speakers on modems. The hand-shake is still there when you connect, but we've discovered you can do without an annoying audio cue representing the signal and get along just fine. Personally I had always kind of enjoyed the sound, but then I'm a major geek and enjoy odd things. (Plus the hand shake on modern cable and fiber optics just sounds weird, even after waveform shifts so you can actually hear it.)

EXACTLY how i feel.

I normally love stats, but jumping a million times in Oblivion was not fun. Especially when the game encouraged you to discover exploits, like casting an unlock spell on a dorr over and over forever just to up one skill. The game was tedious, despite me loving it and doing what it demanded of me. Skyrim's system is definately better.

overall i really miss the stats.

thing i don't like about the system is how all the skills are given equal footing.

So selling my loot affects my levelling.

I have two 15+ characters and sometimes it svcks that they level due to selling off plunder as opposed to using their primary skills.

I only wish for magic that boosted the abilities, as in make run and jump further, sprint longer, crouch faster etc. Also hit harder, cast faster or do extra magical damage. I think there needs to be a way to affect all abilities associated with the removed attributes.

I dont understand why simplicity has to be synonymous with lack of depth, Skyrims system is an interesting step forward and honestly makes for a more engaging experience i find my self getting lost in skyrim in a way i haven't been since morrowind, this game svcks you in the culture the sounds even the color pallet serve to draw you into the world. RPGs are about role playing, strip out all the numbers and dice rolls and you have the core element, getting lost in a another world. Nailing the scene, the tone and the feel of the game is far more important. Have you ever tried playing a d and d game with a horrible DM? sure your numbers and stats are there, heck even you encounters are there right in the campaign book but the world is lost to you your just rolling dice and adding and subtracting numbers. Now for ages in depth numbers and turn based combat was the best way to represent this and give it gravity in the real world, now we have moved passed turn based systems in most games because we can emulate combat in ways that are more visceral. We have had numbers and stat sheets sticking around in many RPGs for years and as many have said people are so worried about making the numerically best character that they partially forget about the game, just like a bad DM. Skyrim is the ideal situation the world is so engrossing and so beautiful that we can engage in our characters go adventuring slay a dragon, explore ruins and become powerful heros without thinking about the numbers and while stats are always important to character customization and advancement if Todd and Co can create an environment where that stuff is mostly under the hood and still make it amazing then my friends we have a great game because just like the best games of D and D when the DM gives you a world rich in adventure you get lost in the game not the numbers

You mean if you max out a skill you might be better than randomly raising every skill at the same time?
No [censored].

The set roles were always there, they'll stay forever, and they'll never be gone.
It's a video game, in the end your option will always be finite, high number in combinations, but finite.

Even in Morrowind or Daggerfall you ended up in a combination of Thief/Warrior/Mage, the number of skills or attributes won't change this.

And again, I ask this question: How is Skyrim less? What is that thing that the "depth and complexity of RPG elements" in Morrowind gave, that you cannot find in Skyrim?

HOW IS SKYRIM MORE OF AN ACTION GAME?!

Very. Well. Said.

For me, the stats were one of the things that made RPGs different (and more enjoyable) than other styles of games (action, adventure, etc). They're gone now (I have no idea how to tell how many xp I have), along with manuals that explain the game's working and rules. I guess it's the way things are going, but, yeah, I think it's a loss.

its still alive and well come to my house friday nights we'll be drinking beer and pretending were elves rolling dice and writing down stats from 7 until 1 am

Except they're not gone, at all.

Press the menu button, go up.
See those numbers? Those are called stats.

The lack of caster stats is why, after you get your master level spells, magic in this game just stops scaling entirely. Some spells and schools get around it (80% damage reduction from dragonhide is always going to be 80% no matter what level you're at, and Conjuration's Bound Weaponry is based on melee and item scaling) but without stats to build them up over time, and no way to get spells beyond the current maximum . . . you're scaling just stops. Meanwhile all other forms of gameplay continue to scale as you level and the world levels around. The major issue with schools of magic and certain spells not scaling beyond their maximum is that there's absolutely no way for them to keep up with the world that continues to level around them. As a result only specific schools (conjuration) and specific spells can keep up in the way non-caster skill scaling allows.

Watch the video by carefully listening to Todd Howard speaking about what they wanted Skyrim to be shaped like if you haven't already:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpsIp9O8dhA&feature=related

My Eyes bleed... Ok I'm exaggerating... But here's a scoop for you, they didn't simplify it for Fallout 3... They took the stats system from... Fallout 1 and 2... T_T And just like in Fallout 1 and 2 your stats mattered, a LOT.

This is why I was absolutely not bothered when I heard that they removed the stats, they were for me completely useless and unimportant in all TES games. Even back in Daggerfall I cared more about my skill rating then my stats... In fallout games your stats have an immense impact, they tell you what you can and can not do in the game (especially in Fallout 1 2 and FNV) in the TES games? Not much so, they literally did nothing besides adding another element that impacted your power, they had the same function as the skill rating, instead of having a useful and unique function like in the Fallout games. Thus they were removed, having two systems doing the exact same work, is not really all that great.