Why? Because you didn't do it on your own? Ever heard of an Apprenticeship? That's essentially what that is. It's book learning as opposed to field experience. If you want to go out and spawn a billion scamps to raise your Conjuration level 10 points, then be my guest. There is no difference. Stop living in your little idealistic world and realize that if you WANT to play a certain way, then play it and stop imposing your thoughts on someone else!

The black market through the College is my main source of Daedra Hearts, if anything, I would support it... I do agree, though, there is very little to do with any organization in Skyrim after finishing, the exception being the Thieve's Guild.

Some kind of side quest after becoming Arch-Mage to, at least attempt, fix magic users' reputations (after the Mythic Dawn tore it down during the Oblivion Crisis) in Tamriel.
I also do not see why the Arch-Mage's quarters isn't an official 'house' - you cannot move a spouse into the room...

That's the biggest problem with all the guild questlines. In Oblivion there was all the standard fetch quests, go kill this quests, etc, but there was a rank system in place. You did things for the guild and got rewarded with ranks that made your progression to Archmage or head of the Fighters Guild seem more realistic. In Skyrim, they should've broken the "story" quests up with more side missions and a ranking system. Both the College of Winterhold and Companions queslines ended up as ridiculous as J.J. Abrahms' Kirk going from cadet to Captain of the Enterprise after one adventure. No ranks in between--cadet to captain in one jump. Completely unrealistic. Working towards it as a rank, not just a title...

I think we can all agree that at times the training is a bit too...abstract at times. Personally, I view the training system as a bit of a hack since the skill leveling system has always had some significant problems with it. Armor levels up poorly, some schools of magic do a bit too. And frankly, is it really more realistic to sit in town and cast "Detect Life" or levitate objects for a couple days or more to become a master of alteration? A lot of the skill leveling stuff is wonky in general, and training just provides a way to avoid that wonkiness and help alleviate problems of leveling up non-combat skills and then being too weak to deal with bad guys properly (you can then train combat skills to lessen the problem more quickly).

Similarly, becoming the archmage and being the archmage also has a host of problems. I'd hope at some point they realize that this process should make a bit more sense. There's nothing wrong with being a respected member of a society like All-Father8420 said. If you don't get to make any decisions as a leader or do anything as a leader, then there's no point to letting you become a leader.

Funny that you commented that the journey is what is important. Then when I comment that becoming leader by some mysterious guy going "you should be leader" and another person then going "yeah, you're leader now" you seem to think I shouldn't have a problem. There's a distinct lack of journey right THERE. Note, I don't have a problem with that guy's comment, or Tolfdir agreeing...it's the extremely casual and off-handed hand-off that concludes with that's bad. Frankly, there should be more involved in it at the end. I would note that I do enjoy the rest of the quest-line and I think overall it is good...just the archmage part at the end is poorly done. This seems to be a problem in many, but not all games. As if upon becoming leader, starting a relationship, or whatever, no problems or new conversations should happen. (Yeah, Bioware sometimes has the same problem). There needs to be at least a bit of action once you've reached a goal that properly demonstrates you've reached it, especially if that goal involves more responsibilities. That or the game should end and you get an epilogue or whatever.

Edit: I don't mean to say I don't think there should have been more breadth to becoming archmage either. Clearly a few more quests for the various school heads and such would make sense. I like the main questline, but it doesn't feel natural becoming an archmage at the end of it since it requires almost no magic.

Well, the new 'archmage' can be someone that never learned a single spell besides the race specific ones but who's very proficient at Th'um, an arcane form of magic. In a certain way, the player becoming archmage means that he's spreading the old geezers' knowledge outside of their old monastery (and without conforming to their rules).

Of all guild questlines, College one is the biggest joke.

Companions, Thieves and DB don't have amazing questlines either but at least they're padded out with radiant quests. Winterhold is just... three fetch quests and it's over, hello Archmage.

My RP excuse for Skyrim's lack of ranks is that Tamriel is in enough chaos what with the rebellion and the WGC treaty. Cyrodiil was generally at peace until the Oblivion Crisis, so of course things are going to be more organized. Hell, the Dragons' return isn't even half of the Fourth Era's problems.

*Several anti-magicka Nord beat on the door* Hang on for a second, please, I'm getting a promotion!

You don't have to be "very proficient" in the Th'um. You just have to know ONE ability in it...the first one you learn, in fact.

Totally incorrect. Did you actually play Morrowind?

Yes, and I got through all of the Mages guild and House televanni as a thief by paying skill trainers to level my skill for me and just using weapons during the quests

did YOU play morrowind, or at least know the systems in it?




the rank system was broken, easily abused, you could pay to get around it, and almost never have to cast a single spell during the enite mages guild quest line.

There's already (or at least there is supposed to be) an entire college dedicated to Thu'um in Markarth. The College of Winterhold does not practice or teach that form of magic.


What do you think you were doing in the black-out time when training? That guy is teaching you how to use magic. It doesn't matter that you don't put that to use, you still at least know how if you wanted. Which is infinitely better than becoming the head of a mage's guild when you don't use magic or even have any knowledge of it at all.


And your opinion of it being easily abused or being able to exploit your way past it does not in anyway remove the fact that it had skill requirements. Whether you learned those skills on your own, or apprenticed under a more powerful mage doesn't matter.

I think Bethesda forgot why guild exist as a gameplay function in the first place, with these "epic" storylines slapped on haphazardly and hollow titles that don't mean anything from a gameplay or story standpoint.

Yeah, I have to agree with you to some extent about this. I feel that Bethesda dropped the ball big time on the College of Winterhold.
In my first playthrough I had magic skills all below 30 but yet I still managed to fly through the questline (which seemed a lot shorter than the questline of the Mages Guild in Oblivion). I think they should have put a lot more effort into the College of Winterhold questline; I was sorely disappointed after recently playing through Oblivions Mages Guild.
Your idea to have quests relating to winning the favour of the different schools of magic seems very good, and it will also give yo a chance to bond with your fellow mages. Lastly, I felt no real sense of achievement when I became the Arch-Mage, I'm not bale to control the working of the guild and wasn't given any real reward.

I think what they were referring to was that you just have to prove you're the dragon born to get in - you don't even have to show spell proficiency outside of using a ward one time.


I'll agree with what most people are saying about the questline, but that holds true to most questlines in Skyrim. Compared to Morrowind, they're... kinda disappointing.