I do commend them for characterizing him through his actions and not cheesy dialogue about something like justice or honor.

I recommend you look at the game Iji, if you prefer rpgs that have roleplaying through actions instead of through dialogue. It's a nice little indy sidescroller, where the very personality of the character depends on your actions in-game, anything from a nervous non-combatant to a bloodthirsty killer. This also effects the game in other ways as well, such as how other characters react to you, and naturally, the ending.No.Did you play Bioshock? Because you didn't notice that many of the basic enemies were women...Not that Gordon Freeman was a guy, but rather, that there was not even a single female scientist did bother me as a female scientist. They did fix that in HL2 though, which at least is an improvement over how most other series go (where usually they drop the choice to play a female character, like in the latest Deus Ex game-- which I still haven't bought for specifically that reason).No, and I didn't claim this one was, that was just you pulling crap out of thin air and trying to associate it with me. It's disingenuous and you should stop.http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/75-Oblivion

Bethesda Softworks is publishing, not BGS. Two seperate groups. Ones corporate, one is devs. Skyrim was a step up, excellent game, good RPG. Still not blow-your-mind/Planescape Torment level writing wise but it was good. From what I've played that is. It's not as if myself or many people here have managed to go through the entire thimg by now.

But your right on the first part, it's in that point of a pre-made character and their story but you get that space to define them. Ala Deus Ex pretty much.

Also I don't feel knocks against Bethesda is needed in every topic. Their a very good studio and obviously not someone we'd want gone from the industry. Much of our angst is at their potential, because we know they can do so many things.

Of course on writing I'd argue letting people like Emil have a hand in writing and even get to do a ton of it/lead on FO3 is a mistake. They need to bring others on board. Your going to let someone not even the Thief team gave a **** about write story and dialogue? Really? Your Bethesda Game Studios, Black Isle even fell before you. Top notch writers would love to work for you.

I found it an interesting way of showing a character type that has been done to death.

Instead of saying "We must save humanity!" He shuts up and does it.


Sounds interesting.
Does it cost anything?

And I don't really prefer either, I just find that in shooters like this decisions through actions are better and easier to implement.


Sorry, I don't really consider splicers people at all.


Why does it matter?
I don't care whether a game has the protagonist a man or a woman or whether there were any men or women at all in the game.

I just play a game for interesting stories and gameplay design. If you avoid game for specifically that reason your missing out on a bunch of stuff.

(Although Deus Ex: HR wasn't very good and the reason you can't play as a woman is that you start out with a girlfriend)


Accussing games of being prejudice towards women by not including them is accussing games of being sixist.


That was funny and very true.

sixists, racists, xenophobes, genephobes, and homophobes everywhere.

Yeah, you almost always get to play as a guy, so you don't have to deal with a lack of immersion in every single game ever released.

As for interesting and different, I've had to play a guy in >90% of games for almost twenty years. How exactly is playing yet another boring generic white anglo-saxon male either interesting or different when that 's about all that the industry vomits out these days?I don't see why that matters, to be honest? Playing a lisbian character would add a feature to the character that wasn't ridiculously overdone and overplayed in the gaming industry, at least, which is more tahn I could say for the boring generic white anglo saxon male that they put in their trailer.

Hell even if they just put a Hispanic dude in it'd have been more interesting. And he'd potentially have a hot accent, but that's beside the point. The complete and utter lack of diversity in the gaming industry does not help the industry.I didn't, so stop lying about it already.

I said that they just didn't think about it. Not that they made a conscious decision, but rather, that they made made it unconsciously by being lazy..

If you are so angry at the whole industry, then why do you still play video games?

On Topic:

Although we don't know much about corvo yet, i am really looking forward to experiencing his quest for revenge, and hopefully learn some more about his back story.

That tired old question is stupid, and it's a shame that people ask it so much.

Just because I argue for a feature to be included doesn't mean that I avoid every game that doesn't have the feature. Just that games which don't have the feature have less to say for themselves than games which do. Much like I would also say that games which don't have widescreen support aren't as impressive as ones that do. Or games that are buggy aren't as impressive as the ones where the bugs are patched up.

This game, for not having the choice of playing anything but a non-customizable boring, generic character, is less impressive to me than if it did have something more interesting and/or customizable. I don't know how that is hard to understand, but apparently it is.

well, we don't know if corvo is boring, unless you have some insider knowledge(please share )

My guess is that the majority of the target groups for games are caucasian males at the age of 15-30, so of course the majority of player characters will try to reflect that/appeal to that costumer group, and things will propably not change before the target groups change. remember, they are trying to make a profit

It really isn't. I get what you mean however customizable characters are still boring. Even in games where you can write your back story. I once created what I thought was a great character but then remembered that the game wasn't story driven. In short:

Most RPGs that let you customize your own character are just shallow or aren't story driven. Only a few games where there are deep characters and exciting story arcs. But yeah still not going to stop me buying the game because it isn't a major issue.

I'm quite aware of why, but that really doesn't make it any less boring, nor does it help the industry try to expand their player base.

It's not a major issue... for you. You're probably a white male, or at the very least male, making it very easy for you to associate yourself with him without any immersion issues.

But I have to listen to his deep manly voice as he grunts in combat and talks in conversation (including the breath, which itself sounds different).... and in order to immerse myself in the game I have to try to play as if that was me, or something I wanted to be for that matter, meaning the game requires a greater level of suspension of disbelief from me than it does for you.

I'm very much capable of doing this. But it still makes the game less enjoyable.

edit: as an aside, I'm not meaning to go on and on about this topic and bash on the company or anything, but rather, I'm just continuing the conversation.

He's a silent protagonist. Also, yes I am a white male. I also want to have to been born a woman. What of it? This doesn't mean I like him 100%. I want a deep character. If I don't get it fine, I am not gonna tone down my enjoyment for no aparant reason. And the immersion thing again...seriously it's like some people need to breathe the game's stale air in order for them to immerse themselves. An game is immersive when the atmosphere is. You could be playing a homosixual clown serial grass picker for all the game cares but if you where put into Silent Hill 2 you'd still immerse yourself because that game has one of the best atmospheres ever. And I am not going by this subjectively (as some people will most definitely try to criticize me for). I mean if you really are that shallow to be grabbed in by aesthetic alone then fine go right ahead. What about the music, the movement, the story and everything else that actually bloody matters.

And OK, fine everybody likes playing a different role, gender, class and so on. OK, I get that and I respect it to a certain degree. It's like the new casual gamers cried 10 years ago that Doom and Quake had unrealistic movement and you could carry a million guns that would normally break your spine. And what did we get because these people couldn't immerse themselves in what is one of the best FPS games of all time (talking about Doom specifically)? We got slow passed realistic brown colored modern shooters where you could carry only a primary (rifle) and a secondary (pistol). Well wow, great innovation guys! Really, well done! Now bring me back my 'unrealistic' shooters.

My point is that you should never dwell so much into things, about anything, ever... Because you're going to hate it and you'll get bitter and cynical and blah blah blah and so on. Just have fun! Seriously it's as easy as it sounds. What's that? Dishonored's coming out? A game with freedom and a protagonist assassin? SOLD! Sorry about the rant but I just don't get why people get hung over things like this. People are gonna be idiots for a long time no point in you wasting your breath or your health on them. sixism is an issue that a lot of developers are well aware of and they are not going to fix it by just making great female character (or at least ones that have clothes on). And like I said, it's not about the gender or aesthetic or any of that. It's about playing a deep character and having fun while doing it.

Maybe Corvo won't be interesting or deep or anything of that sort and maybe I just wasted a lot of time talking nonsense. But in the end run it's you who decide whether or not you'll have fun and it's you who decides how immersed you will be. Don't pretend like only the game can accomplish this, use your imagination.

I don't recall having immersion issues with Mirror's Edge or Thief 2x.

The idea that white male protagonists are grossly overrepresented in all media is absolutely, embarrassingly, emphatically true, but the idea that you can't be immersed when playing as a person of a different gender or race than you is hokerr butters.

Listen, I have to immerse myself into playing a male character every -expletive- day. It's a nightmare, but my body svcks, I'm broke, and I'm too busy with work and college to do anything about it. Yet I don't cringe when I have to in a video game, why? Because that's when It's not actually me, you become someone else... What would be the point of becoming a different person, if that other person was you?!

Would it be great to have more deep female characters as protagonists in games, or more deep female characters in general? Yes, it'd be fantastic, but seeing as how female gamers are only starting to be accept as anything more than neck beards with boobs or idiots being paid to hold a controller, it isn't going to happen.

The industry is comming a long way, but change takes time...

Sorry, bad day, rant was building up.

-edit- addressing main topic of this thread, it got derailed with the female issue.

As for pre-made characters... if a game is intrinsically story driven, then making your own character or customizing the character can only limit the depth of the story...

Let's talk about a senario for a second... imagine you could change eye color, and there's a scene where a character mentions it.. maybe in a poem...
Would you rather them have A) a crappy poem that they work in each eye color, B-) a single pretty good line of dialogue for each eye color(throwing the rest of the poem out the window) or C) forget changing your eye color for 1 great poem.

Now I realize that that isn't a game changing example, but you can scale it for anything... Fact is, if you can change part of your character, any part of the story that referred that part must be able to reflect that change or anything that can be changed must be ignored, so instead of writing 1 amazing story, we're left with 6+ moderate to crappy stories(or triple to development time, meaning we'd be waiting until 2016 or later...)

A lie that you're making up to try to attack a strawman argument instead of actually bothering to read what I'm saying.

Games with choice and customization are more difficult to write for, but they are not IMPOSSIBLE to write for. While ME3 has a lot of crap and arguments going on about it (and I seriously don't care, so don't bring it up here), Mass Effect is a good example of this-- allowing customization and choice of both personality and the actual player character, and having that choice actually effect the game in both major and minor ways in the game and sequel.

Another one is, oddly enough, Saint's Row 3. You are able to select from seven personalities (three male, three female, and one zombie) and customize your character however the hell you want, not even having to match your voice (or clothes) to your gender. Choice of action is more limited, mostly on a scale of brutality to earn respect versus profit-seeking, but it works well in the setting. All of the voice actors did it VERY well (one of them was actually the femshep from Mass Effect) and they really do have some distinct personality traits to each of the voice sets.

Having a lack of choice in that game would have essentially made it just a dull GTA clone, but instead (along with its sense of humor and style) it turned in to something unique.Why do you assume that I "dwell" on it? The only time Ireally think about it is when I'm purchasing a game or posting on a forum about it, asking if (And almost invariably being told no) I can play a female character in the game. Don't take the conversation we're having on the forum to mean that this is all I think about. Hell, in a few days, I'll probably forget that this forum even exists (I didn't even know that I already had a Bethesda forum account when I tried to register to post in this thread).

Having played and enjoyed Saints Row 3, the writing svcked... it was pleasurable, but in a very cheap way... Also, there were a couple points in the game where even the most feminine of the voices used masculine lines... the customization didn't sych with the story. Also, as you mention there wasn't much in the way of choice... it was also a sandbox game... It had very little to no depth. 90% of the characters are one-dimensional and the ones that aren't are only bipolar or schizophrenic. The custmoization didn't keep it from being a GTA clone, the out of nowhere over the top violence, insane humor, and other members of the wacky cast did... If you were limited to only 1 of those 7 personalities it would be "unique". Heck even with the choices it's just what GTA would be in the GTA universe.

I only palyed the first 80% of ME1... I got too bored to finish it. But, from what I see the story is based more on space and all it's habitatiants than on the character him/herself. The lead is a generic soldier with a "dice throw" back story. Sure, there's the "love interests" but how much does that actually affect the story on a whole besides a few quick cut scenes?

After which you go on to address a bunch of things I didn't say and don't think. Straw man indeed.

I think she was arguing my points, just without quoting me.

I know I never quote long posts when I argue them, I just try to imply which post I'm arguing to.

It would have been impossible for you to play as a female character in Deus Ex: HR. The protagonist has prior relations with a woman who is significantly important to the plot, especially at the end. The entire plot would be destroyed.

Play it. It's freakin' awesome even if you have to play as a duderino.


Shepard not having a past is important. You make the past. By he time you get to Mass Effect 3 things from ME1 will feel like your history, your story, even if most decisions don't drastically affect it. I think that this is the defining element of the series. You feel like a part of the world.

Mass effect had years and multiple games to build this up. That's why people love it so much and why it stands out as being great.

When a game acknowledges you and your actions it feels wonderful. I hope this is a defining part of Dishonored because it's how many great games come to be.

I really don't see why this would stop it.

I really can't explain it without Spoiling the plot, major twists, and details that lead up to them. It's integral. If you Play it you'll see.

That is so not true. Requiring more time to write doesn't make it a difficult job. And the writing in the Mass Effect games hasn't been top notch at all. You are praising games that have customization but the only thing you customize is appearance. So you're either shallow or don't understand how character development works. I've said this many times before and I don't see why I should repeat myself at this point. How that the guys that made Machinarium and Botanicula made me emotionally invest in a TWIG as a character? Because that's their style and that's what they like to do and that's why they are an amazing studio delivering characterization and plot exposition without a single line of dialog or one written line of text.

That is great game development in a nut shell (also there is a nut shell as a character in Botanicula). It's not about choice and customization. By that logic you wouldn't be able to immerse yourself in most books and movies ever made because they don't have a female leading role, which is silly to say the least.

I didn't say the character had to be interesitng and unique, I said the game. Whatever the character's race, six, or species (playing as an alien in a game is very fun sometimes) doesn't matter to me and won't break emersion for me if the game is good. I'm male, part hispanic and part caucasian (mostly caucasian which is why I'm very pale and people don't believe me when I tell them I'm part hispanic), and playing a character who is a different race, or mix of races, or is a different gender doesn't matter to me.

That would've been far more interesting. Deus Ex: HR is a bad example, they picked the dullest voice actor ever for the protagonist and playing on the hardest difficulty was just all around not fun (enemies took three shotgun blasts to die when I took one and when the combat was over your character spoke like he had smoked for the past 60 years of his 30 or so year long life).

Alright.
Are you part of the gaming industry? If you work for a gaming studio then show them an idea with a unique protagonist who could be male or female and try to push it as rebuilding the industry to incorporate both genders and all religions. If you give some sort of presentation and present it well then it might work out and instead of being annoyed by how the industry is you could change it.