I don't really think things have been "dumbed down" much. Some extraneous skills were removed, and in my opinion the perk system is far more meaningful in terms of character development than classes were in past games. If you don't put some thought into where you distribute your perks you'll be in trouble, and it isn't possible to become a master of everything like it was in previous games (you can get 100 in every skill but you can't unlock all perks)

I do miss crafting my own spells though.

Not too shabby on the old soul-gems there...

Well yes, if you focus ONLY on what was taken out of the game then it would seem like they oversimplified, but if you consider the content they ADDED then no, Skyrim doesn't seem simplified. with large, more unique dungeons, larger and better scripted quests, more unique cities and settlements, improved( although I'll admit not overly deep) crafting system, dual wielding, 280 something perks, ect.


Like with most things, if you only focus on the bad then you will perceive it all as being bad without taking the whole into account.

I wonder what they will do, in Black Marsh...

Not my character though... But yea, the Morrowind Item menu is better than Oblivion and Skyrim...because we can easely browse through the items and it's faster.

I miss the leveling up system (even requiring you to sleep). I miss every single one of the old stats. I play a thief so leveling acrobatics and athletics almost came first. I miss crafting spells. I do not however miss level scaling (because I did in fact level non-combat skills first and it screwed me later in the game).

I never really crafted in morrowind or oblivion because I found it complicated as **** and not worth my time. I regret it but it is what it is. I enjoy this crafting system more because I can understand it in a glance (call me lazy; I don't care).

I mostly just hate this blasted UI and how going from menu to menu is a pain and it pretty much forces me to use arrow keys and and . I also hate the fact that I am unable to make it full screen windowed mode. I don't get why Bethseda went more for consoles and decided to forget the PC users (I can't imagine playing a game like morrowind on a console /shiver)

Simpler? Yah. Shallow? Not in the least. It's far deeper than Oblivion. Complexity and depth are two totally separate things. The removal of the class system, for example, was a move that reduced complexity but increased depth.

I'm a long time Elder Scrolls fan and I was dubious about the simplified character sheet. I didn't like the simplification from Morrowind to Oblivion for example. That said, I think this new system is an improvement to be honest. Before there was always a part of me while playing Elder Scrolls games that was constantly computing what I had to do to increase the skills that I wanted to increase, worrying about leveling up too quick and having bad stat multipliers, figuring out how to get stats high enough to allow the skills that I wanted, etc. Let's be honest, it was a mess in many ways, and allowed for all sorts of powergaming, or ending up with useless characters if no attention was paid. With this new system, I'm not worrying about any of that. I decided to be a mage, so all that's required is to go around using spells and alchemy. The perks allow for varying customisation within disciplines. And I certainly don't miss item degradation. I think it's well done.

I cannot understand how people can view this is "dumbed down", or simplified. Is it because you can no longer get 100 in every stat? Can no longer be a master thief, warrior and mage on the same character? I think so.

I don't see how having to plan out what you're going to level up, be it through deliberately choosing Major skills you know you can control, or by simply jumping on the same spot for two hours is more complex and fun? I -had- to keep a notebook with a tally chart to actually be useful in Oblivion, that's not fun, complex? Sure, but not in a deep sense, more in a pain in the ass sense. It wasn't more complex as everything you did would lead to the same ALL POWEHFULL! character by the end of your ten page tally chart.

You actually have to decide what you want to be now, with a boggling amount of different routes to go and perks to pick. This game isn't more simplified, it's more complex.

I'm throwing in behind the people who are supporting the game's depth. Tom Servo and mistermagooey have pretty well expressed my opinion: The stuff that has been removed was replaced by equal or better features/mechanics... except for the exclusion of acrobatics, there was so much cool stuff they could have done if they kept Acro in as a skill... but you know what? Give it approximately 1 week after the mods start coming out and it will be in again.

I could go as far to say that ontop of the removal of Acro as a skill I was upset that they removed Birthsigns. Classes? Yeah, screw those I hate classes. Thank god they are gone. All they did was railroad you on a specific path, and while you were able to build custom classes, if you got to a point where you wanted to branch out, even in Oblivion, you would run into a ton of annoyance. But, Birthsigns fit into the narrative nicely. It wasn't something you selected, it was the sign you were born under. We are in a fantasy world where Astrology works, why Wouldn't that still play a major role. Now, I realize they added them in as the standing stones... and... Well Okay, but I still would have preferred to select one at the start.

Now, back on topic: When they announced they were removing attributes I was kind of upset. I wasn't sure why they didn't use an attribute system akin to Fallout 3, where they are selected at the beginning or leveled up using a precious perk... making the attributes have a Lot of weight when it came to building your character. But, playing through at 10 hours now... I really haven't noticed a real Difference in the game now that attributes are gone. I did not realize how little I Cared about them really being there. The game really didn't reduce my capacity to get immersed, because I don't have a personal attribute bar I keep track of at all times.

Game works, mechanics work, still fun, still engrossing...

Btw: Does it strike anyone else as hilarious that some strange people are calling Skyrim unplayable and horrible... when it works better, and has recieved a much more positive response than Oblivion did; going as far to site Oblivion now as some sort of titanic god-like avatar of great Game Design? I mean... did people finally stop complaining about Oblivion a week ago, and I just missed it? Because I swear I have heard nothing but gripes about that game since the day it came out.

"You should rest and meditate on what you've learned"

Riiight, click hammer, click item, DING and no animation was far superior.
And repairing equipment was such an in-depth, well-thought, immersive, intelligent activity that involved skill, strategy and additional brainpower.
Or sleeping in order to level-up? How is that "deep"?
Some of the arguments in this thread are valid, but a lot of them are just skewed nostalgia and the false assumption that tedium + grind = depth.

I agree it was the main problem was getting rid off too much.

Do you even know what streamline mean. It means to improve. So yes they did streamline it. No they did not dumb it down.

Good posts.

I agree.

While I don;t agree with everything they've taken out, I don't miss any of the grind.

I do miss durability though if only as a limited factor in your adventures. Maybe it would have worked nice with the new crafting system.

I'll have to wait till I get a chance to play it to actually form my opinion on it, but I can kind of agree there are some things they removed that they shouldn't have. I think acrobatics and athletics definitely should have been left alone; it just makes sense that a high level thief should be able to outrun guards, plus these skills were easy enough to level up anyway. I can only hope they have a perk that makes thieves faster and able to jump higher, but I haven't heard anything about one yet.

Apart from stuff like this though I think this game is going to be better than Oblivion. They brought werewolves back which I am really excited about and from what I have heard the leveling system is much better.

It means to improve upon a feature to make it easier to use to avoid confusion for those who are less skilled. It doesn't necessarily make it better, nor is it any different then dumbing down. For that is removing complicated or challenging features to make it easier for those who are unable to do it because of a fault in their intelligence. I don't think any one would say that those aren't the definitions unless someone pointed out that they mean and do the exact same thing.

Yes, while I think we got a awesome game and they made a lot of improvements in some areas. Some things I felt should have remained that were removed, and other things that did remain were not improved or really fleshed out at all.

They are actually 2 different word with different meanings and uses: According to www.merriam-webster


Streamlined- :
2
: to bring up to date : modernize
3
a : to put in order : organize
b : to make simpler or more efficient


Dumb down-
: to lower the level of difficulty and the intellectual content of (as a textbook); also : to lower the general level of intelligence in

modders cant help all of us im afraid

but it cant be as bad as all that, i have not played yet ( ) but i do know somethings about it, like the lack of attributes will svck, and the lack of skills will svck, but i have not heard much that worrys me

Give the game a go.

Like people who were worried about "unarmoured" being scrapped in "Oblivion" only to discover that unarmoured characters naturally moved a lot faster and could strike quicker than those wearing armour you may find the developers have put more thought into the game than you've initially given them credit for.

Azrael
The Nord with the Sword

Overall, Skyrim is a better game than Oblivion. And it IS a matter of perspective. Focus on what's not there and you not only create a losing battle for yourself, but you also take yourself out of the game. Might explain the lack of immersion some are feeling.

Now, having said that... There are four big problems:

1. Cutting acrobatics was a mistake. Hopefully a modder will do one or both of the following:

Fix: Add an acrobatics perk tree.
Fix: Allow acrobatics related skills (jumping height, speed, etc) to be enchanted onto items.

2. Also, dual wielding weapons and spells is all well and good, but the act of managing this is HORRIBLE. Sword in one hand and spell in the other? Tell me an easy way to just holster the spell, but keep the sword.

Fix: Add a holster left hand button.

3. While dialog doesn't zoom into the speaker's face as in Oblivion, it can lead to some awkward dialog exchanges. Talk to someone who is already in a coversation and you easily wind up with like three people talking over each other about different things. OK this isn't a HUGE deal, but it does break immersion.

4. You can't pick up EVERYTHING. Just things you can add to your inventory. I liked being able to pick up random skulls and such in Oblivion. Skyrim limits this for some unknown reason.


So at the end of the day, those are two big problems with Skyrim and two medium sized. BUT there are OH SO MANY great things about it that simply surpass Oblivion.

I could list them, but there's no need. Besides, it's something more than this feature or that. It's an overall sense. The world has more heft to it -it feels more real. I haven't even gone crazy and raised hell with a killing spree or anything yet which is weird for me in these types of games. For some reason, doing so just wouldn't feel right. Weird. Very weird. And I know when I do kill my first innocent or draw the wrath of the guards or get put in jail - it will have weight to it. Even killing animals has some wait to it and I'm an avid hunter in real life.

So in that sense alone, they did not simplify at all. They complicated in a really great way! Plus we have more perks, more gear, still have skills to level, more things to collect AND a crafting system. I am a PC gamer and I do like my RPG's deep - so...

I say well done Bethesda... Just don't dumb down your games from here on out. This is the limit!

Not sure if I miss the degradation. But at this point I like the new system. I thought I was going to hate it with no attributes, but to me the perks just replaced them. I am really loving this game after how bland Oblivion was IMO.

Why is it that when something is made more understandable or makes more sense, THAT is the thing that is called "dumbed down"? How is having to go to the blacksmith to fix your weapon or armour or do it yourself dumbed down or a simplified version of "you can use repair hammer anywhere, any time, on any weapon or armour"? Really, the "hammer anywhere" is very simplified compared to what is in Skyrim. Yes, I know degradation is not in Skyrim but that does not take away from my point how it is more complex than "hammer anywhere".

Oblivion's weapon progression was, in a way, dumbed down compared to the way Skyrim is.

Not simplified enough if you ask others lol some are saying the game is tedious. Even going through a forest some don't like it lol. Wonder why some people plays RPG games.