ARROWS need to be nerfed. : V - Skyrim

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:35 am

If we could 1 shot kill with a headshot then it follows that the NPC's could do it to us as well, we already have disputes about the decapitations dished out to players. Now add in the sudden death from an unseen archer ........ could get whiny.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:51 am

Arrows need weight. That is all.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:59 pm

So you want realistic damage in a game that is built and designed around using a damage, hit points, resistance and defense system with numbers?

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:07 pm

In reality, arrows would probably never be one shot insta kill. Who knows, maybe Skyrim has rocket charged arrows.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:15 pm

You want an insta kill for a headshot? Fine, do me a favor an think about something for a sec. Think about the Archery perk that slows down time ( can't remember the name ) coupled with insta kill headshots. Now have something that godly and tell me if you think that would be more realistic than it currently is. If you add a head hitbox that equals an instant kill, that perk has to go.

/Edit
Now an insta kill headshot without using the perk is perfectly viable and actually sounds fun.

Fallout had location damage, you was able to single hit to kill everything at high skill. headshot was just 2x damage not instant kill however with an hard hitting weapon you could kill anything.
Yes headshots are harder but with good sneak you can do backstabs, getting in range for headshot is easy.

Main nerf here is then enemies react to the first arrow and start searching you would be closer and its hard to do headshot on enemies. This was again less of an issue in Fallout because of VAT who was nice to do headshot on moving enemies up close.

However they did not include the location damage from Fallout to Skyrim, probably as it would only be practical for bows and not melee or magic while Fallout was mostly an shooter.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:31 pm

Arrows need weight. That is all.

Not a bad idea, taking that further you could limit bows to only be capable of firing arrows of the same type. Firing a dwarven or orcish arrow with a weight factor would probably mean a hunting bow smacking the user in the face. :smile:

Fallout had VATS and it was horrible.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:41 pm

Arrows in RL don't need to kill, they just need to stop the other guy from fighting - which they usually would. And yes, a long bodkin head will go through most armour at short range except well-made plate with a good curve. In RL, all the weapons in Skyrim are underpowered: most people who survived medieval battles survived because no-one got a clean hit on them. Hit someone around the head with a mace and they will be too stunned to react properly, no matter how good their helmet. An arrow in the knee would be a permanent crippling injury, assuming that you actually survived the rest of the encounter with a massive injury like that. The most accurate bits in Skyrim are high-level power attacks against low-level enemies.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:57 am

because video games, especially fantasy ones, are supposed to be entirely realistic

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:09 pm

gotta love these nerfing topics

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:19 pm

In reality, arrows would probably never be one shot insta kill. Who knows, maybe Skyrim has rocket charged arrows.

:eh: really? xplain yourself please cuse to my knowlege arrows are preaty efective irl

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:55 pm

:eh: really? xplain yourself please cuse to my knowlege arrows are preaty efective irl

Not even bullets (pistol & light rifle) insta-kill unless they hit a good spot (head mostly)

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:08 pm

Damage Treshold should be introduced to TES.
For those unfamiliar with Fallout, DT means if your armor has higher DT than the attacker's damage output, he deals no damage (or the damage is minimal) no matter what kind of an elephant gun is in question. You couldn't just penetrate Power Armor with a 10mm pistol.

I love that system, too bad Fallout 3 doesn't have it.

I think it could work for TES as well.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:34 pm

If we could 1 shot kill with a headshot then it follows that the NPC's could do it to us as well, we already have disputes about the decapitations dished out to players. Now add in the sudden death from an unseen archer ........ could get whiny.

its fine imo to have such mechanics, its always something that gould be toned down against the player but considering most always wear helmets it be no biggie, if its really to over the top they could over lap this with other concerns, master difficulty could include lethal head shots against the pc.
DT and AP values need to be added into tes to give some added point to certain weapons.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:15 am

Beth could easily have put headshots into the game, since heads can be separated from the rest of the model through decapitation, and there are animals with separated heads & bodies e.g. mounted on the wall or on sacrificial altars. So in terms of the model they are distinct in some way. I think Beth deliberately didn't do it because they didn't want the game to be too twitchy.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:23 pm

It's difficult to balance realism with gameplay mechanics in a fantasy universe. Yes, it is more realistic that someone would die shortly after taking an arrow to the head or neck, but how would that apply to the player character? You'd never be able to fight a group of archers again. And how would these new hitboxes affect other forms of combat? Would sword strikes be ineffective unless they connect with exposed flesh? You must ask at what point it becomes too realistic to be fun.

I think that's why we still have the old HP system, everything is generally much smoother when these elements are simplified. Maybe there is a market for a medieval war simulator, but I don't think that should be a part of the ES universe. Not yet, anyway.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:26 pm

If it's any consolation my walking god of a mage gets one shotted by high level archers in the game. This forces me to hide behing my minions or a rock if they start shooting unless i want to be ended. It's a lot of fun I dare say.

My walking ghost of a thief with her Daedric bow and 100 Archery has to shoot a hell of a lot of ebony arrows into a dragon before it expires in a straight up fight. It could be that she svcks or it could be that she didn't use a smithing / enchanting /alchemy loop to break her game. It could also be because she plays on master level.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:54 pm

You're complaining about unrealistic archery when the whole of combat is unrealistic.

If arrows should have multipliers on body parts then:

Daedric, Ebony, Orc and Katanas should be the worst weapons in the game. Why?
Because they would be ineffective against heavy armours due to the lack of piercing power

At least steel swords have the ability to pierce armour, even if player can only slash

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:17 pm

I think it's fine the way it is. No need to nerf it in my opinion. In fact you can make a good argument that archery is not strong enough.

No localized damage please. This isn't CoD.

I actually would very much like localized damage, and I was disappointed when I heard that it was not in the game.

Yes this isn't CoD, and it isn't Fallout 3. But gameplay wise it is similar to Fallout 3. And Fallout 3 (and fallout new vegas) had localized damage.

Begin shot in the chest should do more damage than being shot in the heel (unless the target is Achilles).

And being shot in the knee.... oh never mind.

Nerf this, nerf that,is this the Gears 3 message board? ...

According to this board it seems like everything in the game is either overpowered or underpowered or both.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:50 pm

Archery overpowered...

Haha, you're funny OP.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:56 pm

Honestly thought it was a setup for you to say "Arrows need to be nerfed, they turn adventurers into gaurds if they get hit in the knee". But going back on topic, archery doesn't seem that OP.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:53 am

Archery is way too effective in this game. To the point that its unrealistic. And at the same time, its not realistic enough. Arrows to the HEAD, eyes and neck should be a one shot kill if it doesn't hit a helmet. But anywhere else, the damage should be way less. Especially if you are wearing heavy armour or if you are A FREAKING DRAGON!

Dragon armour is supposed to be the second best after daedric. So why is it that DRAGONS can be bested by puny little iron and steel arrows in just a few hits? These arrows shouldn't be punching through. The dragon's scales should be deflected this stuff without him even feeling it. The only time 'weak' arrows should hurt a dragon is if you get him in the mouth while he shouts or in the eye or something. His underbelly or neck.

It makes no sense to me that I can be taking steel swords to the arms and get hurt alot less than some bandit chiefs /silver-hand/forsworn arrow. I take two or three arrows and I'm dead.

Archery was terrible in Oblivion. To the point where it was useless. Now its far too powerful.

To take your idiotic ideals of realism to their logical conclusion, bethesda would have to remove dragons, magic, gods, any fantasy creatues, severly cripple the weight you can carry.

HOW do you know that in this universe that has dragons, that arrows AREN'T godly in terms of damage? What if in that form of "reality", arrows do more damage than x/y/z?

It's a fool's errand to enforce reality in a game that defies it at its very core.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:58 pm

double post =/

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:21 pm

Eh, the only change I'd like regarding this is for wards to halve damage like shields (and probably change the mana cost to 0, since they nullify mana regen while they are up).

Archery can be good when used by some enemies, but it isn't like there aren't ways to deal with it so it isn't a big problem.

Though, I think what the OP might have encountered is that there can be a point during leveling where archers can be really powerful when other sources of damage don't seem as bad. I think this has more to do with how defenses scale in a poor way as opposed to anything else. That said, it can be managed, though it can be an annoying hump.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:03 pm

No, no, noooo. Archery makes my little old lady character viable.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:23 am

Eh, nerf them all you want. It doesn't matter if I do 600+10 or 600+24 damage.