It's questionable whether the Forsworn were psycho nutjobs before the atrocities or not. Of course, they're living out the Caveman fantasy while worshiping the Daedra so...eh. It's not exactly William Wallace's troops in the woods there.

OTOH, Daedra worship seems to be very common for CIVILIZED locals too.

No kidding. I not only dislike the entirety of the hold (aside from the glorious scenery....), I SERIOUSLY go about ridding the earth of anyone who even pretends to attack me. Actually.... I want to rid the earth of every last humanoid in that hold - and then live there in quiet peace and contentment.

The Priests of Diabella can live.

Bizarrely, they seem like the most modest innocent people there.

1) I think you mean Whiterun, not Windhelm. Ulfric attacked Whiterun because of its strategic position. He did not, however, slaughter innocent people inside of it. He deliberately spared the Jarl's life, as well as his Housecarl's, even though Galmar Stone-fist wanted to kill him. I never said that Ulfric is completely against killing, I said he is against doing it when it is necessary, and he only kills combattants. He was actually MERCIFUL to the combattants at Whiterun, and Solitude, and all of the other places we took. If Ulfric is willing to spare the leaders on the side of the Empire, why would he just slaughter innocent people? Again, nothing whatsoever supports this.

2) Ulfric put down the rebellion so he could worship Talos. The Forsworn also worship Dibella. There is no evidence to show that Ulfric knew or cared about who the Forsworn worshiped.

3) Yes, the Jarl of Markarth hired Ulfric to take care of the Forsworn. That does not mean that Ulfric condones what the Jarl does, and everything about Ulfric that I have witnessed tells me that he wouldn't support the slaughter of innocents. The Jarl of Markarth killed innocent people. This makes the Jarl of Markarth a horrible person, not Ulfric. Of course, there are plenty of reasons to think that Ulfric is a horrible person. This just isn't one of them.

4) Yeah? And? Yes, other people have slaughtered innocent people. The question is whether or not ULFRIC did. And there is no evidence to show that ULFRIC did this. What other people have done doesn't matter. One of the Counts of Cyrodil has an Argonian torture chamber in his castle, does that mean that every person on the Imperial side does? No. You look at the evidence and character for each individual person and decide based on that.

Believe me, I was inclined to believe that Ulfric did this at first, just like I thought he was a Thalmor agent. Then I put 400 hours into playing the game (yes, I know I have no life), really looked at the character of Ulfric and observed his actions and learned his history, and I've decided that based on that it is highly unlikely that this book is true. Maybe there are kernels of truth in the book, but if they are they are greatly exaggerated and in my opinion, the credibility of the author is questionable. The fact is, in the Elder Scrolls, EVERY author of EVERY book is biased. You can never read one book to get the real story, you have to read several and see several perspectives to figure out the real truth. And it is sometimes a pain in the butt, but it makes the story incredible. Ulfric is one of the most interesting characters in Elder Scrolls lore in my opinion. But the Bear of Markarth simply isn't factual.

I love Markath. Thonar is dead, Madanach is dead, and I can live with people who trust me utterly, both publicly and secretly I enjoy my cannibal friends and my new Jarl. Say what you will about Thongvar, but he intends to rid the Reach of Forsworn. Listen to his dialogue if he is Jarl and you'll see he is petitioning Ulfric to send troops to remove the Forsworn. Way better than Maven.

AND they all want me.

"Fish fear me, women want me"? Heh.

All fear General Kael! All women want him except midgets... they have a thing against him...

Hmmm. ARE there midgets (gnomes....?) in this game?

No, it's a Willow joke. The 1988 film.

Ah. Never saw that. I'm not much on movies....

Pity. Great film.

This is not true at all. You have to understand that this is a feudal society. The dunmer refugees suffer because they were asked to help the Jarl with his imperial complications and refused. They believe its not their problem, but it is. If you want to live in Windhelm then the Jarls problems are your problems. And why should they be allowed to buy a house in the nice part of town? Because they have the money? No, thats not how it works. Support your Jarl and he will support you. Its like that in all the towns of Skyrim, not just Windhelm.

exactly, the one dude was complaining that Ulfric dosent help any of the dunmer or khajits if one of their caravans get attacked...... no [censored]. the dunmer have repeated refuse to help out in the war believeing that they dont have anythign to do with the war whatsoever, the khajits basically REVER the thalmor because of the whole moons ordeal, and the argonians out at the boats well as soemone pointed out awhile back on the threads that the argonians HATE the dunmur more than the any hate between nord and dunmer could ever reach, i believe that they are keep at the docks basically to prevent drama and fightign between the argonians and the dark elfs. Why should he help out the dark elfs or the khajits when they are doing nothing to help him out? why waste resourses on people that ur gonna get nothing back. Ulfric didnt place the dark elfs in the grey quarter they were alrdy there when he became a jarl. look at his army, its mainly Nords so of course he gonna help and protect the ones who are backing him up.

The whole premise of that book coming out was to basiclly lay the blame on Ulfric of that incident so that the reason behind ulfrics rebellion is downplayed and eskrewed.

I'm sure that the Nord under Ulfric did more or less what was written down. It would fit well into the struggle between the people of Reach and the Nord. That struggle is far older than Ulfric and full of atrocities. The Imperials themselves have no love for the Forsworn and kill them and prefer to tell lies about them, so it's difficult to see the reports about Ulfric as propaganda. Because it might be reports read with pleasure by many Nord.

That Ulfric is no killer in every situation (only in some) is no proof that he was not eager to commit genocide against special people. Human history is full of genocides, nearly every bigger nation did so, depending on special interests and committed in special situations. Why should the people of Tamriel be better than we are? Ulfric behaves according to what he sees as the best policy for the Nord. Ulfrik has no interest to kill Nord who stood on the side of the Empire, he wants to live the Nords together in the future. He has no interest in killing humble imperial soldiers, because they are not in his way any longer. But he, or better: the Nord, had some interests to get rid of the original inhabitants of Reach. Welcome to reality.

I'm perfectly willing to believe that Ulfric really did what is said, but that's not saying that he and his Stormcloaks are inherently evil. All sides commit atrocities, at times more in touch with their general ideology, at times less, but the fact remains that no mortal war is ever fought between angels and devils. There's also always a bias, smaller or bigger, in just about everything. At times it's a planned move, at times it's not. At times you can convey an entirely different picture by telling the truth, just getting more into detail about certain parts. For instance, everyone has heard of the Holocaust today, and we often get to hear how badly Nazi Germans treated everyone, but few have heard of the Holodomor and similar events, and we rarely get to hear someone focus on the bombing of Dresden, how allied troops bought the "affection" of German women living in ruins with cans of food or of atrocities commited by Soviet troops against German villages filled with elders, kids and their mothers or against fleeing civilians. Before anyone gets too excited, I want to clarify that I'm not belittling the deeds of the Nazis in any way, just trying to say that the black and white perception of good and evil isn't in touch with the real world and that different sides focus on different pieces of the truth.

Another thing I came to think of is the Mongols. They were merciless and completely destroyed those who stood before them, yet another side of Genghis Khan was far more merciful. His troops were free to follow any religion they wished, as long as they followed the laws and he was very keen on protecting scholars and wise men from different groups and religions. Had you only seen one of the sides, he may have been seen as either a tolerant and merciful benevolent ruler or the most bloodthirsty and ruthless barbarian around, but only by looking at both things together do we start to get a decent picture of him.

So in short, there's always a bias and no side is perfect. The book may partially be a piece of propaganda but I think it's plausible that there's some truth to be found in there. But as with any source, it should be taken with a grain of salt.

It's an exaggeration. But anyone who believes that our Johnny Rebel has clean hands is delusional at most.

That's a convenient and frankly erroneous excuse. The problems of the Dunmer refugees do not apply to Ulfric pre-treason/rebellion. They have been there since they immigrated with the destruction of Morrowind and haven't been dealt with by any of Ulfric's ancesors or Ulfric himself. They're belittled for not joining in his rebellion but there's no sense in them doing so when they're already ghettoized.

Ulfric might have improved conditions if they'd fought for him but his whole spiel is "Skyrim for the Nords."

That would kind of hurt things.

I think the book is a little bit of both. The Jarl is not a nice guy. I doubt he's as bad as the book makes him out to be. I could see his one follower ordering mass executions and not telling the Jarl until later, though.

On a related note, for those of you who supported Stormcloaks, do you think that the Forsworn should be granted their own kingdom?

Likewise, would Ulfric allow it?

So long as they don't kill any man or mer alike (except the Thalmor Agents), sure. They can take Sky Haven Temple.

I'd say that Ulfric will perhaps bother with them should they kill some random dude who remotely resembles a Nord. But so long as they sacrifice a Forsworn for their Daedric Lord, Ulfric (or rather, I) wouldn't bother, except if Ulfric needs to create Blunts to match the Blades

None of the Jarls are saints, or paladins. Skyrim is a dog-eat-dog world.


Ulfric could have offered the Dunmer an incentive to fight for his cause, but that might have ruffled the wrong feathers.

in the Thalmor notes on Ulfric he was lied to after being held prisoner for some time and his intel was used against the Nords during the war.

just like the propaganda from the Imperials is that Uflric is just a grandstanding egocentric b'tard who murdered the High King to further his own political agenda and "shouted him to pieces with his voice... just shouted him apart."

and just like the propaganda from the Stormcloaks that the Imperials are blind to being puppets of the Thalmor and that they're godless and without faith.

both sides are saying and doing what they need to do in order to keep a civil war moving in the direction they want it to.

Ulfric is a lot proud and a real lot into the theatrical... he's having an old sword copied (unless you go get the original) because it is a symbol to the Nords of a great leader from the past... he's seeking the Jagged Crown... he wants the Dragonborn to stand with him and be a party to what he does, even if it's having his life ended... he likes a show and appreciates the value of presenting things at their best. He is also dedicated to setting Skyrim free, bringing the Nords back to the old ways and to rebuilding his country.

The Empire is aware that the Aldmeri Dominion does not have any part of the Empire's best interest at heart and they don't trust them any more than the Stormcloaks do.

If you read the Bear of Markarth and separate out anything that could be considred propaganda or rumor for either the Empire or supersticious Nords who retold the story badly and believed it... I think Ulfric likely played a big part in it, and not the part the author wants us to believe or the Foresworn believe and likely also not a part he is very glad to discuss.

remember:
"They say that Ulfric shouted the High King apart with his voice!" - Random City Guards
"He was found wanting by my shout. As to his life, my blade through his heart took that." - Ulfric Stormcloak

As to Nord treatment of the Dunmer and other refugees in thier cities... we have only what other people say about what Ulfric does or doesn't know or do about the problems. The fact is that the Stormcloaks are taking on the Empire and it's a hard fight... confusing simple minded people with too much information is less helpful than it is just stupid leadership. Whether Ulfric and the Stormcloaks win the war or the Empire does and there's new leadership in Windhelm, it will be a long time before the biggots change their tune and no leader is going to fix the ugliness without making a stand and punishing the Nords for being Nords. (argue if you want... we're given dozens of examples that the Nords are a little backwards in their beliefs and are supersticiously willing to believe anything if it's told well enough.)

One of the elf merchants mentions something about "working with the nords and they will work with you" proves the point. In the nord society "crap rolls down hill" so unless your shoveling your way up the heap you will always be on the bottom.

Yeah, it was a nice bit of writing that.

In real life, most racists aren't Nazis like the Thalmor. They just don't like being around other peoples or thinking they're hurting "their" race.

Presumably that poor shopkeeper is a bootshiner and willing to say/do what it takes to make the Nords think of him as "one of the good ones" or "a credit to his race."

bleah. I felt for the guy.

Worse, because he really thinks this was the best course for him and his family.