Not at all - I figured you were RPing a CPS (Child Protetive Services) representative.

The way you made it sound it was as if you were listening to her before you had even heard of the quest. I think on my 1st character I went there after I had heard of the quest, but before I picked it up and after like 3 words out of her mouth I decided that I would've killed her even if there wasn't a quest for it.

I have been tempted to make one of your 'lists'. Game design wise, there are NPCs who are written to push your buttons but you cannot do anything about it (essential). NPCs who are written to give you satisfaction when you get to kill them for a quest because they are so evil/annoying. And NPCs who are deliberately annoying and somehow ignorant of the fact you could one shot them into the Void, but are neither essential or required for any quests... so it's these NPCs that you could kill with no major consequences to your game who are the real test of whether or not you are decent. So far I haven't killed any Nazeems or Taaries, but I think I will keep an eye out for potential candidates for my list from now on. Are there any more named NPCs getting around that have a dark side like the Markarth cannibals?

Btw, Maven and some of her family members are essential because they are the Imperial candidates for the Jarldom if your game goes in that direction.

Skyrim on the whole is sort of a tragedy, storyline/world/what-have-you-wise. There's strife in EVERYTHING. With the war, if you side with the Imperials, you're just being A-OK with the Thalmor all running around and snatching your people up. If you choose Stormcloaks then gauge the opinions of people in Whiterun after you take it for Ulfric, 99% of the people hate the changes. They harass anyone who isn't with them, won't buy from the Imperial lady blacksmith etc. Hell the Nord ideals are born of xenophobia directed at elves. As mentioned, there's a kid who wants you to murder an old woman. There are bunch of notes scattered around in Falmer dens, hastily scribbled apologies and last words to loved ones before they're eaten or worse. It's a dark game in that regard.

Buuuut like some people here have said, there IS a way to earn an honest living. Chopping wood, picking crops, doing a LOT of radiant quests, etc. It's a lot more difficult to get by that way than if you just used Storm Call in the middle of a market or went on a werewolfin' rampage in some backwater settlement, but that's part of the package when you want to be a good Dragonborn, or an even a reasonably less evil one. The place is all covered in war and dragons and stuff, so yeah you REALLY gotta stick to your guns. Even if you're made to do some grim things, depending on how you look at it, it's usually the lesser of two evils. Aside from the obvious stuff like eating a priest, killing a priest for an evil staff, etc.

Also for the Dark Brotherhood, there IS an alternative to doing the whole evil, awesome, but very mean questline.


@Abrinth: THAT. FEEL. Some essential characters are just so baffling to me. Like Gisli. She's gotta awful attitude about her and is racist to Khajiit, but she's essential.

Now strike Nazeem down and take your place at the Jarl's backside!

I'm kinda' tired right now and the list is still in my head for now, but Erikur is another one that's one it that I don't think I've mentioned. Olfrid Battle-Born is another. Taarie is a little more tolerable than Endarie (she's an alternate), because at least Taarie isn't quite as rude when she's at the counter. Yeah, the "rethink that outfit" comment is annoying, but she even says that when I'm wearing Pirate Princess' Robes (renamed Noble Clothes) or the Empress' Robes (renamed Emperor's Robes) so that one I can ignore. I wouldn't mind smacking Degaine, but the NPCs always fight you in this game so it would end in his death - I guess I could cast Fear on him right after I smack him.

FWIW: I don't mind the cannibals in Markarth too much - live and let live kinda' thing - as long as they don't bother me or try to eat Muiri (wife in my chick's game). Make no mistake: I killed Eola on both playthroughs, but that was mainly because she was trying to convince me that I had a taste for human flesh: "Btich, you don't know me!"

Edit:
...but the Black-Briars are still essential after the Stormcloaks take over plus, is her 'free' son a Jarl candidate? Season Unending maybe?

Honestly, almost every NPC in the game has some sort of morally reprehensible quality. From the top of my head I can think of...

Lami, the alchemist in Morthal. She has a few servings of Skooma in the upstairs of her Hut.
Nivenor, the wood elf married to Bolli in Riften. Upstairs in their home Bolli has a note from a PI that says Nivenor is unfaithful. Bolli himself slept with Haelga.
Drifa, the wife of the Pawned Prawn owner in Riften. They've a conversation over a shipment of what Drifa marked "spices" in their ledger. Drifa assures him it's okay, but considering Riften has a skooma problem, yeeeeah.
The Temple of Mara in RIften has a note in some room from the steward asking about "strange sounds like stone grating on stone," AKA the secret Thieves' Guild entrance. It asks them to keep an eye out despite saying they haven't heard it before. SInce they accept mad charity over there, the Guild probably pays them off. Also there's a copy of "A Kiss, Sweet Mother" in one of the bedrooms in the temple.

Etc, etc.

I think he becomes her Steward. Ingun is rebellious when it comes to her mother, so no promotion and no 'essential' for her.

I guess I'm not in the majority finding puffed up boasters like Nazeem funny...? Same with the opinionated Taarie and the others from Radiant Raiment. It's the racists, in-your-face aggressive types and other narrow minded NPCs who press my buttons. And if they try too hard, then they end up being cliched and back to being amusing...

Wonder who would get eliminated if you RPed a Vigilant of Stendarr?

Taarie isn't that bad. Least she spends most of her time wandering around so you can avoid her. Nazeem is ALWAYS in the market place, always like "ohai been to the cloud district guess not lol," so I can see where he can really grate on people.

There's some fanlore that he's just completely insane because he has a key to a place that doesn't exist (Wintersand Manor) and he lives above the Drunken Hunstman. For all we know he just found a key and wrote WINTERSAND MANOR YES REALLY on it. It's the thought like that that keeps me from just using Storm Call in the middle of Whiterun and ending everything.

Your problem is easily solved: Different character for different quests. In that way you have you just play what fits for your character and not play the other quests. You won't loose anything about gaming experience if you create other characters to play the other quests.

What mod are you using? Because the Hand isn't joinable in Vanilla.

This is what I do. My current character is an Imperial Lawful Good Paladin and there are a lot of quests she won't be able to do if I stick to her morals, such as killing off the DB.

Something I keep in mind is that this is a medieval fantasy world. That means things we might consider cruel or even evil today would be considered moral and just in a time like that (holy crusades for example). In the case of the DB, this character never even went in to Aretino's house because it was locked and the guards (the law) told me to stay away. Even if I did, I wouldn't kill Grelod because having a harsh caretaker by today's standards might be seen in medieval times as a caring one. Role playing choices like these make the game more fun for me and my multiple characters with different personalities.

The forsworn conspiracy is a great test of character since it has many shades of gray as to what is right and wrong. I know this character will have some choices because the guard tells you to stop investigating. But then again it is her duty to seek out injustice so there's a conflict. My Chaotic Evil Orc death knight was curious about everything, especially since people were trying to intimidate and kill him. When the guards tried to arrest him he killed them...all of them. He now has a 16,000+ bounty in the Reach and even that traveling bard attacked him on sight. This was not one of the quest choices so it has effectively ended the quest for him since he won't go to jail. It is for me however the (role) player a satisfying, alternative third ending he chose. This is why I love the game in that I can do this and continue on with other things.

Oh, yeah...and she makes sixually suggestive remarks to male player characters.

Yeah, he probably does - I've never joined the Imperials, but that's probably it.

Oh, he's funny alright. Funny - I'm gonna' kill you. Not funny - ha ha.

Don't feel lousy about that. Comparing this to a real world situation, she could have been physically abusive. They are daycares/orphanges that do this without the parents knowing..and the kids being too scared to tell.

It was very satisfying to nail her with 2 ice spears.

I agree. Theres no purely good faction, like a group of virtuous knights or something, if you want to be nice all the time.
Theres not enough purely good options.


I don't mean a faction would have no flaws or anything. But you can go too far in putting bad stuff in.
And Skyrims got too little options for being good.

You can't have a virtuous person who wants to wipe out all evil and destroy evil factions and people in a straightforward way, ie killing them, because it won't let you.
You can make them and roleplay them. But you can't do what you want to.

And why the hell would anyone think killing Grelod is bad?! You're doing the world a favour by killing that nasty piece of work.

That's taking it too far. Grelod is a b**tch who deserves to die in any time and age. She hurts children physically and mentally. No one thinks that's anything other than the foulest evil, ever.
And it's not medivial times. It's another world. Not this world.
And mediviel times were a nightmarish hellhole that no one thinks were good.

I know, right? Technically even the Temple of Kyanreth quest causes you to damage (and possibly kill) the Eldergleam.

Well, some people believe killing in any instance is bad. I am not one of those people, however.

Well, Europe's Medieval era was pretty bad for people IF they were not in the "noble" or "ruling" classes. And of course, we today would likely think the era not so great for the noble and ruling classes either. But if you were a noble near the top of the class tree, or a crowned head, or even a monastic in the "upper echelons", the era wasn't as bad as it's sometimes made out to be.

For people below petty nobles, it wasn't fun. For commoners, serfs, et al, it WAS a miserable hellhole. But then, the Plague was a great leveler, so some of the more egregious noble families got to join their serfs in the equity of death.

Y'know, the funny thing is that if you look at some pretty cogent descriptions of lower-class life in those times, and compare to what we see in "unmodded" Skyrim, Skryim is actually CLEAN SHINY BRIGHT compared. Makes one wonder.... Of course, even in "dirty" Skyrim, you don't have the bugs.... you know the Old Master painting where a woman is actually picking the nits out of her daughter's hair.... (ugh - can't remember the Dutch painter now, jeez - the first thing that goes is the memory....)

I think it should be doable to be "decent" and in a gritty setting at the same time. I don't understand the trend to make things that extreme, where you can't.

I just watched the movie Centurion. Not bad. But the world is bleak as hell, and there aren't any true good or bad people in the war involved in the story.. but the main character manages to be fair minded. He isn't a Paladin. He's just a decent dude.

Actually, a lot of movies are like this...

Too far? Isn't killing someone who didn't murder anyone taking it, "too far?" It's all a matter of perspective. Some might say that killing her makes one just as bad as Grelod is by taking justice in to one's own hands. Imagine a society where everyone goes around killing people who, "deserved to die". Even as recently as a hundred years ago in our world what Grelod does would have been considered normal and acceptable. I am not endorsing what she does mind you, just trying to show you the perspective of another time.

Not medieval times? Well that is the theme of the game... medieval fantasy, right? My, "medieval fantasy" world won't be the same as yours or the next person's of course since we have our own individual imaginations. I like to use a historical perspective of a time that was more barbaric than the one we live in now as a reference for my fantasy role playing world. Sort of like when people talk about what was considered justice in the Wild West days of the USA, much would be considered barbaric by today's standards.

I don't want this to degrade in to a moral debate, I wanted to illustrate how role playing beyond the scope of just the character can affect decisions the character would make.

I do all the time - it would be great. Imagine how polite everyone would be.

Heh. Have to agree.

Well, you can move to Iraq. They're now killing teenage girls for liking rock n roll and wearing skulls on their shirts. Pretty soon they'll kill for the most random reasons.

The societies that don't think much of death usually are pretty [censored] up. They don't know how to be polite, because violence is always the easier answer to every issue.

That seemed wrong to me. The first thing I thought was, well it's the mother tree, why not just ask it in prayer for a sapling? Did'nt realise that you could till my first proper playthrough.
A priestess of Kynereth should know that sort of thing.
I felt bad about hurting the eldergleam.

Yeah, it's weird that some random imperial knows more about what Kyne wants that a Nord in Skyrim, devoted to the priesthood. And then, you can only do good by letting his sorry ass follow you around. Something tedious in and of itself, because the follower system is balls.

Well, all of the Empire 'shares' the Divines, right? Talos is the only one specific to Skyrim, right?

No, Talos is everywhere too. It's just Kynareth is one of divines who was in the original Nord religion. Besides that though, she is a priestess. I don't know why they had to go out of their way to make her the instigator.