1. offline DRM does not necessarily mean rootkitting is involved,
2. GFWL while it did install, you weren't forced to actually use it so personally I would have welcomed it.
3. did beth ever seek to find out how going all steam would actually affect the community?

connection speed is not like an ancient component that I can simply swap out of my tower

@GrayeWolf, So I take it Beth never checked to see how their community would be affected.

The reason they didn't go with GfWL again was because so many people (myself included) refused to use the GfWL Marketplace to purchase DLC. If I recall correctly, this was originally intended to be the -only- way to get DLC for 3. Since so many of us waited until they decided to put the DLC on disk or for the GOTY edition, they lost money. It costs money to make and distribute those disks, which they would not have lost otherwise.

My problem with GfWL isn't that it's an online way of doing things with no physical copy of the disk, it's that Microsoft requires the purchase of it's point scheme, which A. leaves convenient left over points for MS, and B.) is a marketing trick to help people forget they are spending real money.

Steam is just fine and dandy with my credit or debit card and charges real money prices, and that's just fine and dandy with me. Besides, anything you buy is on your account forever, just un/re-install whenever you like or need.

I would not be at all surprised if we do not see physical copies of the DLC until the GOTY edition this time around.

I like Steam just fine, never had a problem with it, and am happy as a bearded clam not to see GfWL in there again.

Hopefully the FNV GOTY will have all patches like FO3 GOTY had so I can actually get the game (dial-up patching on steam is dreadful)

Seems to me the steam naysayers are a very small, but vocal, minority.

That's a bunch of crap, there'll always be a certain amount of hard copies available in stores like Wal-Mart etc. Granted it will only be the blockbuster titles that have enough of a reputation to justify going that route, but there will always be some on the store shelves. You can't wrap a Steam download and give it to someone as a present, and there will always be the impulse buyer who happens to decide on a spur of the moment purchase while doing his/her other shopping.

I'll let you know how well that works in 10-20 years. As it stands now, unless they're going to start doing several things: Lowering the price so it's competitive with retail, or paying me or reducing the cost on a game because of bandwidth charges I won't be using it. As it stands now, it would run me an extra $7.25 on top of the steam purchase for the game. See in most of the world outside of the US, you're on metered bandwidth. And sorry no, switching ISP's is not an option when there's no competition. It's even more expensive in other parts of the world. Where they charge you 2.25-2.50/gb.

Now then. Believing steam is cheaper is folly, unless you're in the US. In which case it generally is. For everyone else? Not so much.

Also the method of payments are lacking. Again not everyone in the world has a credit card. And I expect the number of people having a credit card will drop post recession/depression or whatever you want to call it. Especially since you're looking at another 3-5 years before things get back to normal. Let me know when they have things like store bought cards, or support other methods of payment like interac.

I don't care if I have my software installed from DVD, hard disk or online. What I want is to have complete control over my software. I want to install it where I want, when I want and way I want. I want to be able to back up my software and install it without going online anytime I please. I don't want distributor have any access or control over my software or hardware once I legally obtained it.

I am not against internet download, I am just against intrusive distributor like Steam. Of course that is me, if somebody like it he can use it as much as he wish. But I want to have option of not using Steam.

And no, Steam is not only alternative for software distribution for future. I am using computer and play games for more than 15 years and I saw many trends. Steam is not first, not last and not only one.

Within the next few years digital sales will surpass retail sales (in some formats it already does), it (digital download) will become the majority not the minority it was (and not the half and half it is now). Retail disk is well on it's way to becoming an archaic model when it comes to distribution of digital media, this includes movies, music, games, etc. You may not like it, but it is the inevitable.

Oh, and Steam is not perfect, but it is hugely useful and a heck of a lot less restrictive than Ubisofts new online system, or that limited install bullsh--. Also, consoles won't save you, Steam is being added to consoles shortly. Online authorization/activation is here to stay - it's only going to become more and more ubiquitous - and I have no problem with it as long as it provides a method to play offline once the initial setup is complete (which Steam does).

Since I just installed this crap yesterday, I haven't tried to play Oblivion or MedTW again, and I already have them installed on my machine before Steam ever invaded it. If I have to uninstall Steam and NV before being able to play Oblivion and MedTW again, I'm going to be furious. Checking after work and voting.

Exactly so. And my wife and I have Amazon Prime, so I get it in 2 days tops, doesn't cost me a thing, and I can wrap it. I live in the middle of nowhere with a DSL connection barely better than ISDN, AND my wife and I work over the Internet, so I can't lock up all our meager bandwidth for 8 hours to download a dvd's worth of a game. I'll always buy a disc in a box.

I have been a steam user since it was released some years ago. Never really experienced any major issues that I see other people complain about. I think it is a great service and buy games through it quite often.

Steam revolutionized gaming.

My only issue with steam was paying more for less

Steam is distributor. Gaming is revolutionized by software and hardware developers. Steam did not develop single software or game controller except its own client. Only thing it "revolutionized" is flow of your cash. And your control. They have perfect control over what are you playing and when so they can sell you more.

Steam is not just a distributor, like you said. Gaming is revolutionalised by software. Steam is software and it provides a very good service akin to xbox live or PSN.

Steam is just distributor. It does nothing else just sell software and provide sales related services. It might "revolutionized" (if you think) distribution but not gaming. Fallout would not be different if you got it from Steam or your local store in nice box. It do not changes you gaming experience one bit.

Also please note that subject of this post was not to discus if Steam is good or Steam is bad. That is personal preference. Subject is about customers been depraved of any other choice. Would you be not complaining if forced to use service you don't like?

And Steam is not just any generic service, once you by product from them, you are forced to keep them and use them for as long as you use product. If they go bankrupt tomorrow you loose your product.

Posting to say that I agree with OP.

I'm planning for NV to the the last, and only, game I deal with which is tied up with Steam.

Live and learn. In the future, I'll make a point to take note of what sort of so-called "digital rights" a company is going to try to force upon me for any particular game. If it involves Steam or some other attempt to force me to enslave my machine to someone else's network (assuming it doesnt truthfully need the network access such as an MMO) I won't pay attention to it. So then, I won't want it when it comes out.

Sorta like EA games, who I stay away from 100% because of how horribly they treated players in Ultima Online (an mmo). I see EA on a game and I am just like, no. Nuh uh.

I doan care if Jesus Christ floats down from the sky on his Giant Pogo Stick and says that the whole point of the Second Coming of Christ was for him to tell us all to buy a particular game, because of how great it is. If it tries to do this sort of thing and it doesn't actually NEED network access to my machine (such as, it is an MMO), I'm really just not.

LMAO!

I also agree with the OP. I have Steam, thanks to one game. Civ V. I bought the game and had it put in the computer before I realized it required this idiotic distribution software.
In short, Steam has caused problems and lockups even with the 'Start Offline' mode. And the lockups have been 100% Steam locking it's own a$$ up. Which meant that I couldn't play the one game via Steam. (though i could still browse the web, use 3 different IM services, play games on Brettspielwelt online, chat on IRC and chat on a MU (yes I multitask like b****)).
I have had Steam (or a steam-based game) cause my computer to reboot with no chance because it stopped responding. And with a Quad-Core AMD Phenom II system, I have far, far more than enough processing power for a crappy bit of software like Steam. So it sure as hell isn't my system.

Do I believe that Steam is the 'way of the future'. Not really. could I see it? Yes. Do I like the idea? No. I prefer hardcopies. There are many times where I don't have reliable internet access and would like to install a game. I have a small cd-folder that I can take anywhere, that I'll put a few games in (no need for music cd's anymore with a good phone/mp3 player and bluetooth headset)
While I may not be the most organized person, the last time I lost a CD or a CD-key, was well before I graduated High School (Which was around 20 years ago now). Anyone with half a brain, can keep track of a few (or more) CD's/DVD's that matter to them.

Also, if Steam is supposed to be such a savings. Then I want to see it. No box, no disc, no hardcopy manual.. I want to see at least $10-20 off the price. Not to mention I LIKE having a hardcopy manual, and don't see paying the full price of $40-70.. THEN having to use my own money to print it all out myself. BS. Then add in that so many games are coming out unfinished or simply buggy as hell (Blood Bowl, Civ V, FNV (and I'm sure there's a hell of a lot more)). Mods are one thing. Coming out with inferior products and claiming they're the new best thing is another.

I might support Steam if part of it's distribution was that it ONLY promoted properly working/tested software. I'd gladly wait 2-6 months for a game if that was the case.

As for indie programmers. there are other digital downloads, often from their own personal websites that can get their games out. Xbox Live has a way for people ot get their indie games out (Braid was on there too. Though disliked the game so you wouldn't find me buying it for ANY platform.)

Steam is not, nor has it 'changed the face of gaming'. Nice marketing ploy. Like most marketing it's mostly BS.

To quote William Shakespeare, much ado about nothing.

Steam and systems like it are the future of gaming whether it pleases you or not. You can't claim that you did not know, it states right on the box that it requires steam. If you are the type of person that doesn't bother to fully investigate your purchases, you do not have my sympathy. I have over 25 games either purchased through Steam or requiring Steam and I have no problems with that at all. To those that say, 'my game, I do what I want, etc". You pay for a license to use the game, you do not actually own the game. Every piece of software you buy, you are actually buying a license to use that software, not to 'own' it. The creator of the software can require any conditions he wishes in order for you to use that software. Have a problem with that? Don't buy the software. It is your own fault for not investigating the terms and conditions pertaining to the software you pay for the right to use. Benefits of FONV using steam. Install on as many systems as you want as many times as you want and play without having to have the disk in. In fact, once entered into steam you can use the disk as a coaster, or like me, put everything back in the box and stick it on the shelf. For those having issues with steam 'crashing' your system or interfering with other software, it is not steam or this game causing the issue, it is something in your system.

I run Windows 7 64 bit. I have no issues with steam causing any problems. Oblivion runs fine, CC runs fine. In fact I have zero issues at all with steam. It is YOUR system and how you have it set up that is the problem. To deny this is to say that thousands, and probably millions, of people with all sorts of different hardware, software, driver, and codec installations who have no problems must be dreaming or on drugs. Well I assure you, neither applies to me and I have no issues. So, before you start ranting and raving about how steam destroyed your system, maybe you should in fact investigate why YOUR system is screwed up to begin with that all it took was a light nudge from steam to push it over the edge.

[quote name='GrayeWolf' date='02 November 2010 - 09:57 AM' timestamp='1288709857' post='16617494']
Steam and systems like it are the future of gaming whether it pleases you or not.
[/quote}

As someone else pointed out. It might the be future of game software distribution on PC's. It's hardly the future of 'gaming'. Especially when you consider consoles, Portables (PSP, Nintendo DS), Smartphones, and boargames or other non-PC based gaming of which there is quite a lot

[quote name='GrayeWolf' date='02 November 2010 - 09:57 AM' timestamp='1288709857' post='16617494']
You can't claim that you did not know, it states right on the box that it requires steam. If you are the type of person that doesn't bother to fully investigate your purchases, you do not have my sympathy. It is your own fault for not investigating the terms and conditions pertaining to the software you pay for the right to use. Benefits of FONV using steam. Install on as many systems as you want as many times as you want and play without having to have the disk in. In fact, once entered into steam you can use the disk as a coaster, or like me, put everything back in the box and stick it on the shelf. For those having issues with steam 'crashing' your system or interfering with other software, it is not steam or this game causing the issue, it is something in your system.
[/quote]

I went back and looked. I figure if Steam is so amazing, then it would be right on the front. Not the incredibly small-print on the back/side that few people look at unless they're not sure if their system has what's required to run the game. Do you ACTUALLY read through every last bit of the EULA each time? If so, i commend you. While I might be a speed-reader, I'm not a lawyer or that OCD, thank you. If it's not easily visible on the front or on the back. It's promoted. It's not 'there' for 95+% of the population of people who buy hardcopy games. And yes, because of this I will not question anything I get from Firaxis/2K. Also, there are still a great number of games out there that are Digital Download, or on disc that DO NOT REQUIRE Steam. It's not that hard to do.

[quote name='GrayeWolf' date='02 November 2010 - 09:57 AM' timestamp='1288709857' post='16617494']
I run Windows 7 64 bit. I have no issues with steam causing any problems. Oblivion runs fine, CC runs fine. In fact I have zero issues at all with steam.
[/quote]

You have Oblivion and CC.. That's nice. why do I care? I would say that this is about FNV, but I don't even have it on my computer. I got it for the 360 because I didn't want more Steam reliance of games on my computer.

[quote name='GrayeWolf' date='02 November 2010 - 09:57 AM' timestamp='1288709857' post='16617494']
It is YOUR system and how you have it set up that is the problem. To deny this is to say that thousands, and probably millions, of people with all sorts of different hardware, software, driver, and codec installations who have no problems must be dreaming or on drugs. Well I assure you, neither applies to me and I have no issues.
[/quote]

Looking at this thread, as well as multiple others on here, and Civ V forums, I am far from the only one who has problems with Steam. With as transparent as Steam is supposed to be. It's really anything but. If it's because I have X component on my machine compared to Y component. I'm not going to change my computer that's been working beautifully with no problems for 2 years, because of Steam. You are the one on drugs if you think I'm going to bother. *claps hands* kudos for you, it works. I know you're not the only one. Don't insult my intelligence saying I'm the only one where Steam isn't all fluffy bunnies.

[quote name='GrayeWolf' date='02 November 2010 - 09:57 AM' timestamp='1288709857' post='16617494']
So, before you start ranting and raving about how steam destroyed your system, maybe you should in fact investigate why YOUR system is screwed up to begin with that all it took was a light nudge from steam to push it over the edge.
[/quote]

As for the 'light nudge' I admit it's possible (and perhaps) that it was Civ V that caused the problem. So the crash/reboot may not have been Steam directly. However, I never once said Steam 'destroyed' my system. Typical overblowing of what I said to try to make a point. Three times in three weeks, Steam locked up on it's own doing it's updates, taking over three hours (even after restarting Steam) to do a simple update, which prevented ANYTHING Steam-required (ie: Civ V only in this case) to run. I have the max non-corporate high-speed internet package for my area (Cable, no fiber still dammit). If Steam can't work with it's own servers, even when I tell it NOT to go online. That's a problem with the software of Steam. Not my computer. I am also not the only on who tells Steam not to do anything in the options. Yet it still does. Hell, even XBox live tells me when there's a patch and gives me the option of NOT using a patch if I so choose. There have been times when steam has screwed up in it's delivery (Opening doc mitchell glitch), so PLEASE don't tell me that Steam is infallible.

I tend to agree with this assessment. I also think that even if you have some odd issue, it's not really logical to just automatically blame it on Steam rather than the game or the hardware. When I said I want proof I was thinking more along the lines of the crash log when the game crashes / freezes. Steam is by far one of the most reliable and stable programs I've ever used. There may be issues with it being slow if you're stuck on dial-up, but that's not Steam's fault.

Well genius, if steam is as bad as you claim, these forums would be down more often than not from the 'majority' of people having issues with steam. The problem I see is the minority of people who have issues with steam make noise all out of proportion to their numbers.

*headpats GrayeWolf*
You really try so hard to be insulting don't you?

And again, taking my words somewhat out of context.
'As bad as I claim'.... in this case, I claim you're reading what you want to from my words.

Does Steam have a point for PC gamers? Yes, it does, and obviously a good use.
Does Steam break everyone's computers? Obviously not, else it wouldn't have survived this long.
Do some people love it? Obviously, there are blatant [censored] out there for it, with comments like (you must have been kicked in the head by a horse to not use Steam) and such crap
Is Steam ~NECESSARY~ for PC gaming? NO, it is not. There's really no argument. The PC Gaming industry has gotten along just fine without if for decades.
Should people be 'forced' to use Steam to play games they might like? No. I don't believe they should. There are a multitude of games out that exist that you CAN use Steam to get. BUT YOU DON'T NEED TO.
Is Steam infallible? Hardly. No piece of software is infallible, something can always break it by design, or even by accident. And I'm sure you've heard of patches put out by software companies that broke more things than they fixed... Or are your rose-colored glasses just that thick, and come with sound-blocking ear-buds too?

Is Steam the be-all/end-all of gaming for PC's? Personally I don't think so. And I doubt you will ever convince me of it.
Do I NEED to be convinced that it is by you, or anyone else? NO... considering how Steam is merely a distribution method (with some other perks), the only person who NEEDS to convince me are the Steam marketing people.

If you note the topic of the thread, it states that being FORCED to use Steam svcks (My enhancement on 'forced'). This is something I agree with fully. I, personally, don't see the use of it for my gaming happiness, in fact, I see it as a detriment. I'm not saying that my example goes for everyone, whereas most of the Steam [censored] DO put forward that claim. It's as moronic as my saying 'I like to eat, but I hate having all the preservatives in most food these days'.. and then someone coming out and yelling at me for it because 'preservatives are the best thing in the world'.... Are preservative useful? yes. Are the necessary? Technically no. I can get food farm-fresh and actually cook things myself as long as I do it before they spoil. (Now no, I'm not one of the people who does hate preservatives or such stuff. But I don't try to shove them down other people's throats either)