You could say the NCR is ripe for rebellion too.The basic community ideal is 'we move in,make you part of us and tax you accordingly', not alot of towns in the mojave are that excited by the prospect so it cant be that good.Isnt it Marcus who says something along the lines of, 'you cant keep walking over people, thats how revolutions start'? Through conversation with Ceasar we also see how the idea of the NCR as a democracy is basically a farce.
As for Nipton, I cant help but feel they had it coming, even Ranger Ghost of the NCR isnt too bothered.

What's he do?

In Fallout 2...


Then, of course, in Fallout 3...


So just basically, the Enclave didn't melt away so easily. They just kept taking on one major shellacking after another until they all died out because of attrition and we can assume, by the state of the Remnants in New Vegas, they've all scattered to the four winds by now...

...but who knows? They were a cool faction. Doesn't mean we won't see them in further games to come...

I wouldn't mind seeing the Legion again, though I wish they gave some better justifications for the stuff they do. Regardless, they're sure fun to kill.

Lanius was not supposed to be Caesar's successor. Caesar even said that Lanius holds no loyalties to the Legion.

The Legion forces in NV do not represent what the Legion is really like. You only get to interact with the Legion's military in the game, you don't see what the rest of their civilization is like. Soldiers are not the same as civilians. Plenty of nations train their soldiers to be ruthless and unquestioning to their superiors.

You don't really see what the NCR is like in NV either. The NCR troops in the Mojavo do not represent the NCR's true military might. The NCR stormed Navarro and kicked the BoS's butt. They even have power armored troops guarding their caravans in the west. The NCR would crush the Legion if they brought their full military might against them. The fact that they're having so much trouble shows that they may have a lot more problems than we're aware of.

Oh there should still be that Chicago outpost for Enclave. And I'm sure if not FO4 than at least some other expansion will cover that.

Disciplined and chem-free? Sure---if you also take into account the fact that these Legion soldiers do not think for themselves and are powerless without their leaders. In short, they're brainwashed into obedience; intellectual freedom thrown out the window. The only men in Caesar's army that can be trusted to think on their own and operate outside of such a tightly controlled environment are the Frumentarri, like Vulpes Inculta.
Some people think that in order to run a tight ship you need to instill fear but I believe that fear begets resentment, which eventually leads to rebellion and eventual chaos. It is better to be respected, which I highly doubt can be achieved through slavery and abuse.

It's my understanding that the Legion doesn't have civilians. They aren't a nation, or government. They aren't even a militarily dominated government. The Legion is an army, nothing more, nothing less. They don't govern tribes or settlements so much as take what they need from them in order to support their further expansion.

They aren't really any less democratic than the United States. And while e.g. if you bring NCR to Primm, they might complain about taxes, they are still grateful and appreciate the security. At least in NCR, everyone is a citizen, not either a soldier or a slave like in the LEgion.

your queries actually apply to the actual historical Roman Empire as well. There is a book out by a historian that begs the question, who was really the barbarians the Romans or their enemies?

Soldiers in general don't think much for themselves. Even the US military has a ton of problems with collateral damage, friendly fire, sixual harassment, and [censored]. Heck, one fourth of female military personnel in Iraq and Afghanistan reported sixual harassment and 80% of military men who were convicted of six crimes are honorably discharged. Then there are incidents like the Pat Tillman cover up. The military itself creates an environment where all these things happen regardless of how "civilized" or disciplined the soldiers are.



Except there would be no way for them to survive without civilians. Regardless of how much they plunder, they need to grow their own food and make their own supplies. There's no way that they can just rely on taking over tribals since most tribals are hunter gatherers that don't exactly have vast stores of food and supplies.

You seem to think that by pointing out the flaws of the US military you can then draw a direct comparison with Caesar's army. For all its imperfections, you can't let a few bad apples from the former justify a brutal ideology practiced by the latter. As far as this issue of corruption, collateral damage, and a shaky justice sysyem; sure, the US military has a lot to improve on but I feel that this is a different argument. It's also dishonest to claim that Legion soldiers share the same freedoms, or lack of, as an American soldier.

In the Legion, there are soldiers, and then there are slaves. So, I imagine, the image of the Legion as it's presented in NV is pretty accurate, accross the board. It really depends on how much freedom and leeway they give their slaves, which is never really elaborated on. Though, I doubt it's much.

I think it's probably safe to say that Caesar isn't the effective ruler of the Legion, so much as a figurehead. Even House will declare that killing Caesar has changed the current situation very little. He's a collection of proverbs for the Legion to quote to one another - nothing more.

Are you sure you want to read this? Just sayin' it's so funny and awesome that it's worth it to reload a save. The set-up with Ceasar telling you what your choices are and then what happens would be worth going through again....

Anyway,

Same thing happened to me. After that, I reloaded and butchered the guy myself.

Ok you women (This is Caesar yelling at his troops on top of a very high ridge.) come and sit right here on this good advantage point with your wine and beer and.... hey you there why is that bread is not dipped in olive oil? Where was I up to? Oh yes come and see all our enemies killing each other. Coming from the west is the NCR and coming from the east is the Brotherhood of Steel and the Enclave fighting each other. We might as well stay here and watch the show. Who ever wins, that who we going to fight against. Enjoy.

The NCR is just as weak as the Legion. Tasking you to take out dangerous raiders that NCR troops failed to kill, discovering spies within their ranks despite the whole of NCR unable to, killing certain influential characters despite the NCR unable too, and conquering the Legion camp by yourself (or with your companions) despite an entire NCR Army unable to do so at the Battle for Hoover Dam.



The NCR is just as bad as Legion (militarily, not ethically). Unable to unleash a final blow on the knife wielder despite having the gun.

Except I never drew a direct comparison between the US military and the Legion. I'm pointing out the fact that there are problems inherent within every military. The United States is supposed to be one of the most civilized nations ever created, but it still has such huge problems in its military. The Legion is made up of tribals and raiders with no education and a completely different set of moralities, and its military reflects that. If a modern civilization cannot create a military that meets the standards and moralities of that society, why would you expect a civilization made up of uneducated bronze age people living in a post apocalyptic world to be able to create a military that even comes close to meeting modern day moralities? Heck, if anything, Caesar's military stays true to their moral philosophies while our military does not stay true to the moral philosophies of our culture.

As for the "few" bad apples from the US military. That's clearly not the case. The system itself is full of problems. As I mentioned before, 25% of female military personnel reporting sixual harassment, that is not a small problem and it does not account for all the incidents that do not get reported. The Pat Tillman incident where a friendly fire incident was covered up and then used as propaganda was not the only such incident. Then there's the time when Rumsfeld said that the Department of Defense couldn't track over $2 trillion in transactions after an audit.



Why would you assume that the Legion's depiction in NV is representative of all of the Legion? That's like saying the US troops fighting in Germany during WW2 is an accurate depiction of what the people in the rest of the United States are like.

Because those US Troops represent the US military, just as Caesar's Troops represent the Legion military. The Legion is military - you either fight, or you're a slave.

When I first talked to Caesar he informed me of his vision to unite all of the tribes and conquer everything. This goal in my opinion is quite similar to Alexander the Great :hubbahubba: . That man was probably as cruel or more cruel than Caesar. Both people want to unite everyone under the same flag. Maybe Caesar is intentionally bad with good intentions. His rules against drugs make me think he has planned wayyy ahead for his goals of the future (as in not wanting his society to rely on drugs).

There is no way in my opinion that Caesar is controlling/maintaining all of the previously conquered cities. Just like Alexander could not.


Though this is only from one or two conversations with him. Hell for all I know he could just be a psychotic maniac. :tops:

Except they're not. Cass talks about how Legion roads are safe for traders and caravans and Raul talks about how things were much worse in Arizona before Caesar came along and that the Legion brought order to the region. Then there's all the stuff in the Van Buren design documents about the priestess caste that spreads Caesar's propaganda among the populous and how children of slaves are indoctrinated into members of the Legion but only the strong are sent to join the military.

I think it is a bit of an NCR myth that the Legion is just a plundering army.We dont know for sure what kind of set up the Legion has back east, it's still pretty much an unknown quantity.
They must have some kind of civil/agricultural support, and we know they do alot of trade.If caesar really went along roman lines, then they must have an excellent engineering/equipment supply aspect, this is shown slightly by the construstion of the fort, aswell as the legionaires themselves being well equipped and supplied for the job in hand.I will agree though, that alot of this support work would be done by slave labour, such as the medic at the fort.
I wouldn't count the legion out because of its low-tech nature either.Its is like that for a reason, with more emphasis put on physical fitness, teamwork and training.While the NCR get smashed on the strip, the legion train, rehydrate, and sharpen their weapons.

I think the legion reflects the monguls. A giant military force that conquers for the sake of conquering. Gives the choice to a conquered populace to fight with us or die. It cares very little for creating civilation in its wake. Its always in a state of total war.

There is (unfortunately) too little in the actual game that would really explain what the Legion *is* and what it really does. It controls land in Arizona, and we know it's safe. But what's it *doing* there? Is it actively beating down the populace, keeping the peace through fear, threatening people to obey or die? Or are the conquered lands more civilized, ruled "fairly" (within the boundaries of the Legion's general philosophies)? We just don't know.

We know that the Legion warfront is a brutal one. But who knows what Caesar will do after he conquers "his Rome" in New Vegas? I definitely doubt that he would stop the Legion's aggressive outlook against the wastes and its various people, but perhaps he would look more inwards to the lands already conquered?

I think this is one of the Legion's greatest flaws in how it's portrayed in the game, because we don't really *know* what we're supporting if we choose to do work for them. We only know that their war tactics are brutal and that they're actively expanding quite aggressively. But beyond that? Or do they literally have no plan beyond the conquering? It just seems unlikely to me given how Caesar seems to have a rather strong idea about things and is educated (moreso than most people in the wastes). Perhaps he is just a loony? Too little is known to make an informed decision in New Vegas.

Never thought of that. Guess they could be compared to a few civilizations. I still would like to see how america turns out when the legion is done with it.