So I played through both endings as a CL character in the hopes of finding some sort of sympathetic or worthwhile reason for supporting Caesar. I pvssyd with every CL character, had long dialogues with Caesar, and even saved his life for one playthrough. This is what I have learned.

Caesar has no freaking clue what he's doing.

He talks big about unifying humanity under a new Pax Romana and uplifting it from ignorance, but there is not a single hint he's actually done anything but teach his solduiers Lati and dress them in sports equipment. When you are first introduced to Legate Lanius in his camp, you witness him sacrificing humans to the God of War. The greatest tactical genius under Caesar is just another tribal in fancy armor! If you allow him to become Caesar, he slaughters the Followers OTA for claiming Caesar is a mere mortal. This is the legacy Caesar leaves behind. Bear in mind it was Caesar himself who selected an ignorant and quite insane barbarian as successor.

At one point, if you ask Caesar about the Brotherhood of Steel, he shows disgust at how few Scribes even know who Roger Maxson is. This, among a wave of other historical critiques, from the guy who tells people he's the son of Mars. I'm not saying the devs fouled up. I'm quite sure it was intentional that the devs made Caesar a great speaker before introducing you to Lanius and discovering how full of [censored] Caesar is. I think its clever, actually. John Doman really gives a fantastic performance that makes you wonder what you really think about the Legion. But in the end, the Legion are as primitive and savage as the tribes they profess to uplift.

Because it was Joshua Graham that know what they are suppose to do?

I think Joshua actually poisoning Caesar slowly and stuff up the first battle of Hoover Dam on purpose.

If you want to get instantly turned off on the idea of helping the Legion play as a female character. Before you even get the chance to talk to Caesar you're given allot of reasons to stab them in the back.

I actually played as a female character and helped the legion just to see how they'd react - it was kind of amusing. When I was done though, I promptly reloaded my old save, got Boone back in my party and started slaughtering them again, capping it off by punching Laneus right in the face. To quote Mr. Fantastic: "It felt... so good".

Does anyone attempt to justify the sixism or do they just cough awkwardly and hand you your next quest?

No, in fact they act highly offended that a woman is helping them.

Caesar still does have good intentions though. He saw the brutality of the legion as neccesary for them to conquer their Rome- New Vegas.

Ostensibly, once the legion conquered Mojave, it could start to culturally and technologically modernize, just like the real Rome.

Still, it would probably always be a slaveholding society like Rome, so that's a negative.

And I'm not saying it would work either- road to hell being paved with good intentions and all that. But Caesar really believes he can make this work. He wants to use incrementalism to civilize the tribes he's conquered. To conquer these tribes and then try to turn them into model citizens wouldn't work, according to him. I mean look at Mr.House- he went to these tribes, made his deal, and made them "civilized". But one tribe is still trying to eat people, and the other is planning to unleash a gas attack on the strip. The other one is mostly civilized but its leader is plotting to kill Mr.House. So Mr. House's "instant civilization" didn't work perfectly.

That's why Caesar chose his model. The legion is still primitive and tribalistic for a reason- Caesar isn't seeking to civilize them right now- he simply wants to replace their tribal identities with one great tribe. Eventually, that great tribe becomes a nation, a transformation that is supposed to occur once Vegas becomes New Rome. With a great city as the seat of his empire, Caesar then would seek to foster civil society all throughout his territory. But he didn't feel he could do so until he had a capital city fitting for the Legion.

Again, I don't think it would work. The legion has taken on its own brutal ethos that is distinct from anything Caesar wants to accomplish. It's essentially become a huge band of raiders. Legate Lanius proves this. And of course it's a massive personality cult, when Caesar dies his ideals have no hope of continuing.

And even if Caesar could establish a High imperial society from the Mojave, he and his successors would suffer from the same drives that eventually destroyed Rome- the need for more and more slaves and resources. Once his territory became too vast, his empire spread too thin, it too would fall.

Yeah. In fact, from what I gathered it seemed that Laneus and Caesar are the only people who weren't frothing at the mouth over it, apart from general "I'm surprised to see a woman doing this" type comments.

I did think it was a shame they weren't as "morally grey" as I'd hoped a major faction to be. Whether they had good intentions (debatable) is irrelevant - Hitler and Goebbels thought they were going to create a better civilisation too, and their attitudes towards other "tribes" are somewhat similar.
However, I do love to hate them, so they got that bit right! (I can't believe they thought any player would really sympathise with them; they're just too demented) :flamethrower:

I sincerely doubt we'll ever see the Legion in another game, unlike the Enclave or Master's army. If five elderly Enclave members can face down the Legion's entire force at Hoover Dam, then they simply are not capable of coping with the realities of the wasteland. Caesar has only fought simple tribesmen and relies on the Courier to handle matters beyond his grasp, like the Brotherhood of Steel, Mr. House, and General Oliver himself. The NCR has a long string of pregameplay credentials showing they're a force to be reckoned with and more importantly, to be relied upon.

Now, technically the Legion had taken over a large part of the country East of the Colorado, we have no idea what's going on in the cities occupied by Caesar's legion back that way, all we see is the forward force. Do you want your brightest minds and educators in your forward force or your most dangerous warriors?

I'm glad they put the legion in New Vegas. Like Chineapplepunk said, i love to hate them.

Yeah. Several characters in the game explain how the Legion places all its emphasis on "bringing a knife to a gun fight", as it were. If it weren't for the NCR's own bureaucratic incompetance, the Legion probably would have never even reached Hoover Dam in the first place. Otherwise, I agree with your assessment: The Legion are little more than glorified tribal raiders.

I would, however, like to see the Legion again in a future Fallout game - if only because I enjoy blowing them away so much. They are supposedly a nation unto themselves, like the NCR. So, given that they've been halted at Hoover Dam, perhaps they will try to move their conquest eastward instead...

Caesar is just a crime-boss, a mafia godfather. This much comes across when you speak to him, and in the voice character.

I think they will feature in future Fallout games - afterall, they are 80+ tribes and own most of the land east of the Colorado. I don't think they will be a formal Legion though, more like the Khans, small tribal groups. Unless another charismatic Caesar-type arrives on the scene.

(Strictly speaking the Legion should be fighting on two fronts: the NCR coming from the West, and the Brotherhood/Enclave coming from the East. )

Can someone reminded me how the hell does the Enclave lost again?
Arcade Gannon have 50 points in special, One vertibird strike squad can do a whole company of Rangers couldn't achieve without suicide bombing.......

I am just saying, how the F can the former Shadow government melt away so easily?

You nuke them! Melting tends to occur.

yeah, it didnt take me long to see through his facade.

he is just another charismatic individual that convinced a bunch of people that he knows whats best for society.

There really wasn't anything the NRC could have done about the Legion growing on the other side of the river. They are over extended as it was keeping the Mojave from falling apart.

Ugh...

Is there ever a dictator who views himself as evil? They all see themselves as good individuals, doing the best they can to "better" humanity. And here comes the cliche phrase: Actions speak louder than words. For all Caesar's talk about uplifting profligates from their ignorance and establishing some type of new world order, it does not in any way justify the slavery, degradation of women, and the institutionalized torture and killing of civilians.

That said, I think it is possible to realistically play a female character who helps the Legion. She could have the secret intention of gaining as much influence as possible to use in bettering the lives of women under Legion rule and hopefully change the direction of Caesar's empire. It's a high risk strategy, but not impossible in the long run.

he is not suppose to exist after the great war, look at their uniform. are we playing fallout or not ? or plan to history repeat itself ?

I see your point, but bear in mind that Caesar did not appoint one of those 'brightest minds and educators' to rule in his absence, but instead the most monstrously savage warrior he could find. If Caesar wanted to leave behind a legacy of enlightenment, it doesn't seem to have extended beyond teaching Latin catchphrases.

Personally I think the legion has alot to offer.
Cass, Dale Barton and Raul all mention the good security in Legion territory.The NCR are pretty good at taking over towns and hiking up taxes, but does this always translate into added security? Im not so sure.The NCR also rely on the courier to deal with matters; three card bounty for example.The legion crucify chem dealers.
Sometimes I see the NCR as a bit of a joke.Go see the 'loose', drunk female troopers frolicking in the fountain on the strip and compare that to the disciplined chem-free life of a legionaire.No contest.As you pointed out, the NCR have experience fighting powerful foes, while the NCR itself must be the biggest challenge faced so far by the legion.I am sure they will adapt and come back stronger whatever happens.The legion is a still a state in its own right and 86 tribes is still 86 tribes at the end of the day.

Vlad Tepes made the same argument. "Yeah, so I like to stick people on poles. And I once nailed a guy's hat to his head. But everyone is safe, so I must be doing something right." The safety argument tends to fall flat when someone could be declared an enemy of the state for no reason. Living in Legion territory might make you safe from raiders or thieves, but it doesn't make you safe from the legion. You're safe from a raider killing you for the caps in you pocket, but instead you have to worry about a legionary killing you for looking at him wrong.

Even with the safety argument, you'd have to be living in the most hellish of all imaginable hell-holes to make the legion seem like a preferable alternative. Especially if you're a woman.

Any strong civilization is forged by the bonds between the people it is composed of. The stronger and more numerous these bonds the more they tend to stick together. The NCR might look stupid, but they enforce stronger community ideals. Where as the legion has a massive slave labor force just waiting to rebel. And rebel they will since change can't ever be stopped.

Yeah, Hegelian Dialectic-- please.

The first Legion I saw was in Nipton and somehow I managed to go through the big hotel and read Steyn's journal before the leader initiated dialogue. Just dead, poor townspeople all around and legion dogs. And what Steyn wrote about his two girls.

Then outside the Legion leader explained to me that they had to die because "they were all wh0res". How straight evil can you be?
First time NV made me cry, but not the last. :cryvaultboy: The troop made it about 30 feet before I threw them a frag grenade party.

I appreciate how bad they are. It's more powerful and kind of refreshing to just see the butchery right in front of you, not off in the background like the Enclave's genocide in FO3. I doubt you'll see the kind of "tough times call for tough measures" arguments for the Legion like you did for the Enclave.
I did love the scene where the courier and Ceasar have their chat, though. Very nicely acted, and well set up to make you afraid. Very tense.

And Benny does the absolutely perfect thing if