Ugh I just saw how long this post was... I'm sorry guys lol

Alright so it seems the Ulfric debate has only gone in circles and no one can agree. So I thought we would start this discussion on whether or not Skyrim could defend herself and or even go on the offensive against the Aldmeri Dominion.

To start I'm going to throw in this link that gives us the details of the Great War.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

I for one think Skryim would actually do quite well in a war with the Dominion if she gained her independence from the Empire. And I shall share my reasons why.

So lets start with the Aldmeri Dominion and the Great war

So reading through the report detailing the war, its quite clear the Thalmor weren't truly in a position to be making demands of anyone. Yes the Empire was reeling from the war and many of her Legions were under manned and tired. But the Thalmor weren't in good shape either. The main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed and the General; Lord Naarifin deceased. Signing the White-Gold Concordat and giving away the southern coast line of Hammerfell to the Dominion, cost the Empire all of Hammerfell. The 5 year war that followed with the Dominion and Hammerfell ended in a stalemate and the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai which expelled all of the Dominion from Hammerfell. This shows us that the Dominion was so weakened from the Great war that it didn't truly have the resources or man power to sustain a war with a single province. The Redguards declare that this is proof that if the Empire stayed in the war with the combined might of all the Imperial provinces that the Aldmeri Dominion would of been defeated.

This defeat by the Empire and Hammerfell shows that the Aldmeri Dominion isn't the true powerhouse that everyone makes them out to be. They didn't even truly conquer Valenwood or Elsweyr. Valenwood was absorbed into the Dominion during a coup and Elsweyr was taken in during the disappearance of the moons. Which demoralized the Khajiit as the moons play a big part in their religion. When the moons reappeared the Altmer claimed credit, saying they made the moons reappear. The Khajiit were over joyed and declared the High elves savior and from that point on grew distant from the Empire. Its debated if the Altmer had anything to do with the reappearance of the moons or if they just knew that the moons would reappear at that time. So in terms of mass military conquest the Dominion seems to be lacking.

We can't really tell because all we've seen so far is the Thalmor. But it seems the Dominion only uses the High Elves as their military arm. If this is true that means the Dominion has a very small pool to draw from for its military. And since the High Elves are so long lived and assuming the birth rate is far lower than the rest of the races, they wouldn't be capable of going through another war. I think this is one of the reasons the Aldmeri Dominion actually signed the White-Gold Concordat. This would give them time to build up a new army and sow dissension among the Empire. Which can be seen in the loss of Hammerfell and Skyrim. Over all it looks like the Dominion only makes use of the Wood Elves and Khajiit as servants. You can see this in the Diplomatic immunity quest.

Now lets discuss Skyrim

Compared to Hammerfell which is a next door neighbor to the Summerset Isle, Skyrim is one of the furthest provinces away from the Island. Hammerfell and Highrock also happen to be between Skyrim and the Island. Both Hammerfell and High Rock are not on friendly terms with the Dominion. To get an army into Skyrim they would either have to sail past Hammerfell and Highrock and enter Skyrim from the Northern Sea. Looking at the Northern sea it's quite clear that its a body of water quite inhospitable to boats friendly to only Ice wraiths and Horkers. The many boats of Dunmer and Nordic origin are a testament of how treacherous those waters are. And this is without the Nords themselves repelling any invasion by sea. The Nords are undisputed masters of the sea and sea warfare. The only people who can claim any competition with the Nords in sea warfare are the Redguards. So this option isn't even really a option. The only viable way the Dominion has a shot of getting into Skyrim is through Morrowind.

Moving through Morrowind would probably be easier said then done. What Dunmer that remain would probably be very difficult to deal with and the Argonian's would probably be even worse. It would probably be a slow enough progress that the Nords would get wind of an invading army rather quickly and would set up defenses along the Eastern border and prepare Windhelm for siege.

Then there is dealing with Skyrim's terrain and weather itself. Skyrim is famed for its harsh and dangerous land. It is flanked by the tallest mountains in Tamriel save Red Mountain. These mountains making a natural wall around the land. The Wild life is among the most dangerous in Tamriel, home to packs of wolves, bears, the generally peaceful Giants and their mammoths, Ice wraiths, giant cats, the ill tempered horkers and the infamous Trolls. The experience of all this at once would be incredibly jarring for a High Elven army. There isn't much farm land to be had in Skyrim and the Elves would have to make do with hunting game and scavenging berries from the land. This would leave them open to attacks from the wild life and most of all, open to attacks from the local Nords. The land is full of Cairns and caves with which the Nords can launch raids. I'm sure the Elves would scour these area's finding Draugr and trap alike. Cant stress home field advantage enough here

Then there are the Nords. With the land they grow up in, its hardly a surprise they grow up to be some of the toughest warriors in Tamriel. Being heavily muscled and being the second tallest people in Tamriel they are built to fight. I don't think its ever stated but I think the Nords made up the majority of the Imperial Legion or at least they were the second largest group within the Legion. So many of the Nords in Skyrim have had military training. Fighting is the norm in Nordic culture, brawls are generally used to settle debates. The only school of magic accepted in Skyrim is the school of Restoration. Magic is other wise seen as weak and for the Elves.

Anyways lets get back to why I think they could survive a war with the Dominion

The Nords have been at war with the Elves ever since the Night of Tears. When the Falmer tried to cull the Nords numbers. Ysgramor escaped and later returned with the 500 companions and nearly drove the Falmer to extinction. From there the Nords conquered High Rock and Morrowind. They supported the Slave Queen Alessia in the rebellion and instrumental in breaking the Elves control over the mainland. They along side the Akavir appear to be responsible for the near extinction of the dragons, which is impressive in itself. So the Nords did this all while the Elves were at the height of their power. But to get back to a more modern time of Tamriel. In 3E 396 the The War of the Bend'r-mahk took place, where Skyrim destroyed the combined armies of Hammerfell and High Rock and gained a significant portion of both lands. We can see the outcomes of this with Markarth and the Forsworn. This shows that that Nords are more than capable at fighting both a very martial people and a people with magic nearly rivaling those of the High Elves, at the same time. And maintain the land they took from them.

So if the Nords can beat a combined army of both Redguard and Bretons, one of whom fought the Dominion to a stand still. Why shouldn't they be any more capable of defeating the Dominion? From their distant position and having a great proficiency in raiding and sea warfare. It seems the Nords would be ideal to defend Skyrim and launch raids on the Summerset isle. If the Nords form of raids are anything like the Vikings of history, they could harass the entire coast line of the Island and force the Dominion to relax its hold on the mainland and have to deal with the Nord threat on their home land. This itself would give the Empire some real breathing room. If the Nords did this I feel the Redguard would quickly join the Nords in raiding the Island and make the Dominion worry. If not I'm fairly sure the Redguards wouldn't object to some Nordic traders setting up base on the coastline of Hammerfell ;D The Dominion would be in no real position to be muscling the Nords around on the open sea.

There is the chance the Nords could also start to pick up the Thu'um again in small amounts. The fact Ulfric knows how to shout could mean more nobles or champions could learn this as well. The Thu'um caused the near extinction of the Dragons and started the first Nordic Empire and the current day Empire. Having a one man Siege engine would be devastating on the enemy.

I don't think I covered everything but its late and I should be doing ma art home work..... so yeah let the debate begin

ah come on now.... no takers for this

Not really, because as you already noted:


You also note Skyrim's terrain:


But it could be argued that the terrain of Hammerfell is even more horrific for an occupying army, with settlement clustered around the outskirts of the inhospitable Alik'r Desert. The Great War describes an event called "the March of Thirst", when dehydration alone caused significant casualties among Imperial soldiers. While the terrain would certainly favor an insurgency, Thalmor have a significant magical advantage during the initial campaign and, given their ultimate ambition is genocide, I suspect would be painfully efficient at rooting out dissent following conquest.

Much of the rest of your post seems to act on the assumption that Skyrim would be attacked before the Dominion topple the Empire. I don't believe this to be the case. Given the crucial role Skyrim and its soldiers played in the Great War, the loss of Skyrim would likely be a deciding factor in the second war. The Altmer live a long time, they're in no hurry.

Lastly, in terms of how strong the Dominion really is: they were able to fight the Empire to a standstill, while Ulfric's forces are unable to oust even a single Legion. That really doesn't bode well in terms of a free Skyrim holding back the Thalmor.

The empire got its ass destroyed by the dominion. Despite the few victories the empire had, it had been defeated through allmost the whole war, a few more defeats, and it would have been out. While I was talking to a thalmor agent in markarth, he said(this is not exact) "While the war was considered a "stalemate", this is not realy the case. We were realy the victors.The empire is still around because we let it stay around". As much as I hate to say it(Im a bosmer, so my homeland is in the hand of these scum as well), he's right,if they were to invade now, the empire would surly fall. It has to be united if it is to stand against them.

I for one hope there's a dlc where we can take them on, would be fun.

United the Empire was defeated by the Thalmor.


What chance does anyone have against the Dominion with a shattered Empire?


Accept the Empire, or accept your new Altmer overlords!

Totally, if the empire stopped helping them.
Since the treaty the Thalmor are now spread across the whole empire, under the ruse that they are ensuring the laws are enforced with the blessing of the empire. But the war did not leave them without casualities and even if it didn't they are spread so thin and far apart, they are defensively weak, they haven't quite reach the point of finishing setting themselves up to take over everywhere, so driving/killing the thalmor that do exist in Skyrim shouldn't pose a huge problem.
It's after that though things hinge on, they'd need the remaining empire to stop killing those they are meant to be protecting, and the thalmor need to be not given the chance to build up on Skyrims borders from around Tamriel. Hopefully the early success will make others see how weak and spread thin the AD are at the moment, but also how strong they'll end up if they keep letting them build places of power everywhere, and that what they are doing/have done isn't something to be ignored even with the empires blessing. With simultainious fights breaking out across the land where they are trying to control there will be too many fires to put out.
It's more likely they'll win against the AD if they do something now then let them weaken and control areas and grow as the empire rest, by the time they did get an army big enough to ensure victory, the AD will have all the time its needed to strengthen itself, probally taken sudden control over cities with no one left to oppose them as the empire let those potential allies be dragged off and killed, not only loses them but losing others though a lack of respect.

this all depends on how the lore plays out.

first off, the lore needs to dictate who won. the lore will choose stormcloak or the empire. it has to. it cant be ambiguous. my guess is stormcloak. another empire vs aldmeri is...boring

then they need to decide paarthunax's fate, as well as the rest of the dragons. with dragons still roaming free in skyrim, the aldmeri have to deal with that. lore-wise, dragons are unstoppable killing machines of doom. lore-wise, only a dragonborn can slay them. (ingame... a pack of guards can take em out fairly easily if it ever lands. and mages will kill anything in sight given enough time). my guess is paarthunax and all the dragons except odhaviing die. (killing off the dragonborn's pet dragon is not a great idea...)

speaking of which, they need to decide what the dragonborn ultimately did. through DLC, he could do anything from becoming emperor to being lost in time after the dragons were defeated. my guess is he'll stay important and when the aldmeri come, he'll return as a 1 man army. obviously he'll need to have a defined fighting style and im going to assume it'll be more battlemage + shouts than thief/assassin. when the aldmeri do come, they'll have a heck of a time dealing with the dragonborn.

they'll also have to think of what the guilds will do. but when the aldmeri threaten death, im going to go ahead an assume they'll fight back. dieing isnt exactly something they wanna do...

all in all, the aldmeri really dont stand much of a chance assuming the dragonborn + odhaviing help out and stay true to their lore powers. if not, it doesnt look good...

Hammerfell's land scape is described in UESPWiki as such; Hammerfell is a barren and rocky place, the vast Alik'r desert taking up most of it, with fertile grassland only on the coasts. As such, the major population centers are on the coastline, while the majority of the country is inhabited only by shifting sands and nomadic tribes. In the north are the Dragontail Mountains, home of the misunderstood groups of Orcs reviled by many Bretons and Redguards.

The majority of the population is located along the coast lines and is described as fertile grass land. Not exactly a hard landscape to survive in. All the Dominion would have to do is take the coast line and push the Redguard out into the desert and hold those cities. There would be no real point in following them into the Alik'r desert. But still after a 5 year war that ended in a stale mate and signing of the peace treaty of Stros M'kai. With all of their magic and supposed military power, they couldn't control the coast line of Hammerfell. The area of which is the least hostile. I don't think we know much if anything of the natural predators in Hammerfell. But we do know Skyrim probably comes second in terms of most hostile enviroment to live in after the Black marsh. I haven't found anything on the the March of Thirst, could you elaborate further on that? I don't doubt moving through the desert is a dangerous task. But its been shown that people die of dehydration in the snow just as easily if not more so in frigid environments. Granted there are plenty of lakes and rivers in Skyrim. But you know the Nords would be watching those spots and ambushing the scouts and Elves gathering food and water for the Dominion, you add in the natural predators and the Elves would have a difficult time gathering the food and water necessary to maintain an army.


Oh I doubt Skyrim would be the first target the Dominion attack if they were to re declare war on humanity and the Empire. They would most likely attack Hammerfell or Cyrodiil. Which would further weaken the Dominion's military. Hammerfell has repelled the Dominion once and I wouldn't doubt they could do it again. And the Imperials are no slouches when it comes to war. Without Skyrim to fall back on they would be like a cornered animal fighting for its life. They could fall back on High Rock and unfortunately that is probably where they would stay. The resulting war though would dwindle the High Elves military even further and their birth rate is significantly lower than the humans. Its the reason the Elves tried to commit genocide on the Nords when they first landed on Tamriel. They knew the Humans would out populate them within a couple generations. With every battle the Elves lose a warrior or mage they cant quickly replace.

This is assuming Skyrim isn't raiding the Summerset isle the entire time. Given the chance, the Nords would invade Dominion outposts and the home land itself non stop. The Dominion would have to focus on the Nordic reavers before they could even think to invade the Provinces. As I mentioned earlier, the High Elves would do poorly against the Nords on the sea and they would never know where the Nords would strike next, I think the Redguards would unofficially join the Nords in these raids. The Elves would be in constant fear of raids and what military they do have would have to be stationed on the Island. This means they would probably abandon all of their mainland holds in Valenwood and Elsweyr. If this were to happen I think Valenwood would go through what Skyrim is going through now. Elsweyr would probably stay loyal to the Dominion for a time but if enough time went by; would start to self rule.

Not going to go to in depth on the Civil war, but it was really more of a Nord vs Nord war versus a Nord vs Empire one and with all the Nordic politics makes it a very compilcated matter. In general I would say the Nordic system is much like Highland Scotland's. A Nordic warrior's loyalty is to their Clan Chief, Jarl, Patron etc. The Jarl's loyalty is to the King. So when the King has a call to arms the Jarl sends out a call to his warriors loyal to him to form a warband and then be sent to fight for the Kings cause. So even if you don't serve the king or have any loyalty to him, your Jarl's loyalty to him in turn makes you loyal to the King. So if Ulfric was elected King through the Moot and then had a call to arms to fight the Dominion. You can bet your ass that every man and woman in Skyrim would rise up to fight him. Some may grumble and whine but they would do their duty because their Jarl told them so. Also I doubt you would find much complaint from a Nord to take the fight to the Elves. The Nords and Elves have had a poor relationship every since the two races have met, seeing as the Elves tried ta ya know, commit genocide or put chains on them.

There is also the fact the Nords are probably most successful of the 3 martial races when it comes to combat and wars. I'm not saying they are the best warriors but they have certainly proved they can tumble with the best and beat them. They broke the Elves power hold on Tamriel in the first Era at the height of Elven power. They've pushed the Orcs around and they have defeated the Redguard on their own turf. They were the entire reason Cyrodiil exists. They held the Empire's fate in their hands when Tiber Septim was trying to form the modern Empire. The Nords have been the deciding factor in nearly every Elven conflict, even in the Great war the Nords were instrumental in breaking the Aldmeri Dominions army.

If you read that report on the Great war, the Empire may of been beaten and bruised but they actually didn't lose the war. All of that talk from the Thalmor is bravado to try and look like they are in control when they truly are not. The Dominion isn't occupying any Imperial Province. The only Dominion you see is her Agents in the Thalmor rooting out Talos worship. This is a right the Dominion has to insure the White-Gold Concordat is being adhered to. It's not a show of military power, its just exercising a right they have. If the Dominion really was in power and had the capability to win the war, why did they sign the peace treaty? If they could truly stamp out the Empire, they would of just formed another army, got another General and pushed the Imperials out of the Imperial city once again. They also would of been able to maintain the land they gained in Hammerfell. But no the Thalmor needed that Treaty much more than the Empire did, they formed a smoke screen of power to make the Empire scared. After The Battle of the Red Ring, the Dominions main army was destroyed to a man, not even the General Lord Naarifin survived. The loss of this army was probably more devastating then everyone in the Empire actually knew.

So no the Dominion did not destroy the Empire, they certainly bloodied the nose of the Empire but after the retaking of the Imperial city, the ball was in the Empires court. They just decided to throw it out of bonds instead of score the game winning point.

I feel Bethesda will make the Storm cloak's victorious canon wise, it would really shake things up for the Empire and make for some interesting lore. I also feel the Canon Dragonborn is the Nord we've all seen in the trailers and even right now on this forum. A big burly blonde warrior with Studded leather armor running around with a banded iron shield and Steel long sword. I think Paarthunax will also survive the return of Alduin. Who knows the Dragons might start to even spread over the rest of Tamriel. But the Dragonborn is clearly an enemy of the Dominion so be he Imperial or Stormcloak he's probably the most powerful mortal Nirn has seen and is probably going to be the downfall of the Aldmeri Dominion. Atleast I hope the Dragon born is, I would be fairly upset if the player character had nothing more to do with the war

Honestly I think Skyrim could hold out on its own. We, as players in the game, can hop up the side of pretty much any mountain in the game, this is not the case in the in-game "reality". An army would have a very difficult time passing through there with the weather, wildlife, and Nords. Since this is going on the assumption that the Stormcloaks win, its been pointed out in the game that they are masters at hit and run tactics against the more numerous Legion, perfect for holding up an enemy army in the mountains. Magic is looked down upon in Skyrim but they do have the College in Winterhold, who hate the Thalmor if you do that quest line, giving them some magical muscle.

While this is a fantasy world, in warfare, magic tends to be just another weapon and I think comparisons to our world and some of the battles fought here is not all that crazy. An army invading Skyrim reminds me of how Napoleon lost his invasion into Russia due to the Russian winter, as well as how badly the Spanish guerrilla fighters messed with the French supply lines. Supply would definitely be a problem in the somewhat barren and very harsh Skyrim. Supply lines are also very rarely taken into consideration by game devs and fantasy book writers, who just figure its all about armies fighting in one big battle. While the frail Altmer could use magic to keep them warm and better protect their supplies, that's magical resources that's not being spent hurling fireballs at the enemy, thus taking up some of their biggest advantage, magic. Add in that the Nords are very good and fierce fighters, I think they can stand on their own.

However, I don't think the Nords would need to stand on their own. Ulfric is a bit of a racist in that he does not like other races but Nords in Skyrim. I do think that he would not be against military alliances with certain other races. Hammerfell and Skyrim are natural allies in this war, maybe even the Argonians too, considering how the Nords hate Dunmer too. Bretons were the Nords ancient allies when the Empire was originally formed, and I don't think the Altmer like them too much either. Not 100% sure on that though. Don't know about Orcs and the tiger guys, but I would say Orcs yes, since Nords respect strength, cat guys no, they are thieves and drug lords.

Ultimately, I don't think there is enough lore and cold hard facts about how the Empire lost in the first place, as well as actual numbers of armies, tactics employed, and resources available to accurately tell who would win in a fight. If you really think about all the things that need to happen for an army to even reach Skyrim, you run into even more problems for the Dominion. My vote is for Skyrim.

Oh, and my Dragonborn could probably take on all the armies in the world at once right now, and Empire or Stormcloak, Dragonborn hates the Dominion

You remember the Alik'r warriors you encounter in Skyrim? As in, they live in the Alik'r desert? That desert made the difference in the Great War. The March of Thirst was the initial Imperial retreat from southern Hammerfell in first year of the war, and involved crossing the Alik'r to regroup in the north. Further, the Great War refers to Arannelya's forces crossing the Alik'r as a feat in itself. Between the crossing and the subsequent battle outside Skaven, the Dominion army in Hammerfell was left too weak to advance further into the north.

Then:


Meaning the terrain of Hammerfell cannot be discounted.

Secondly, naval clashes between the Altmer and Nords are more likely to be inconclusive. I can't find a citation at the moment, but I've seen it mentioned that the Altmer possess an incredible competent navy, which - considering their home province is a series of islands - makes a lot of sense. The lessened difference in skill, coupled with the Altmeri familiarity with Alinor's waters, would most likely result in a naval deadlock. Valenwood, Elswyr and other conquered territories would most likely remain loyal due to decades of Thalmor purges whittling down native opposition to Dominion policies and actions. Additionally, the use of Bosmer, Khajiit, goblins and so forth would quite conceivably help counteract the lower Altmeri birthrate, with Thalmor forces forming an elite corps around which levies from the "lesser" races are organised. Even so, allowing the Imperials a greater pool of soldiers to draw from (Cyrodiil + Skyrim + High Rock) allows much more leverage of the mannish birthrate in preparing for round two before the Dominion can.

I agree with larkhill that the lore needs to be straightened out. If the Altmer ever made it to High Hrothgar, the Greybeards would give them devastating casualties, and that's not even counting Paarthurnaax. And if Paarthurnaax stays alive, he teaches other dragons the Way of the Voice, making them peaceful, so that if it came to it, the other dragons could help even more.

Also, if people could somehow get the help of Giants, they could be a HUGE power, even if there aren't many of them. If the nine holds could stand together, at least for a while, they could beat the Dominion. That's the problem though, they're not united, which is why the Dominion are such a threat.

You know someone should try to send an emissary to the http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Maormer. I bet they could turn the tide.

The Goal of the Dominion originally was the acquisition of Southern Hammerfell. They accomplished this so easily they were under the impression the Empire was weak enough that they could take the Imperial city. Which they accomplished but in turn stretched themselves so thin that they in my opinion were the actual losers of the war. I'm just saying most of the fighting happened along the coast line of Hammefell, which is fertile grass land. Yes the desert and enviroment played a part in some of the fighting. But most of the fighting was in a generally temperate climate. Seeing that Hammerfell could fight the Dominion to a stalemate while being next door neighbors just goes to show the Dominion isn't the power house it claims to be. The Redguard have it that much harder just because of the proximity of the two nations. The Dominion if it really thought it could continue the war could of kept on funneling troops into Hammerfell with no resistance, they owned all of the Southern coast of Hammerfell for the entire 5 year war.

The Dominion may have a impressive armada. But its a well known fact the Nords are the masters of the sea and the sight of Nordic long boats cause dread in even the most hard bitten sailor. The only navy that can claim any true competition with the Nords are the Redguard's. I can't remember which book I read in Morrowind but I'll try to look for snippets at one point. It's all conjecture but I think the Nords would try control the bodies of water around the Summer set Isle. Choking the harbors and controlling what goes in and out. Raiding every trade ship in and around the island. Then from there made raids in land and terrorizing the local population and then leaving before any real retaliation could be formed. Much like how the Vikings controlled the seas during the Dark ages. I don't think the Dominion would have a proper response to this of warfare, the Nords have never actually directed their entire wraith to the High Elves, the Provinces are so far from one another. The Dunmer are the only ones who have had to deal with Nordic invasions and were even conquered by the Nords.

Valenwood is rather sketchy I would say with its opinion of the Dominion. There seems to alot of resentment among the Bosmer population, but I'm not to certain so that's just guesswork on my part. Elswyr was absorbed rather peacefully if I remember right, that's why I feel they would stick to the Dominion longer than Valenwood would. We also don't know if the Aldmeri Dominion uses the Bosmer or the Khajiit as anything more than Servants. There is no mention of them in the war and I feel if they did contribute in the war there would be reports of atleast the Khajiit doing some crazy maneuvers. The Imperial military seems fascinated with Khajiit military tactics and there was no mention of it for the Great war. The Altmer seem confident that only High Elves are needed to win the war against the Humans and would probably sneer at the suggestion of using Bosmer or Khajiit troops.

Though honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they did use them as troops, it would be illogical not to use them for military purposes. But as of right now there is no proof of them being used as military assets. But this is mainly because we've only seen the Altmer dominated Thalmor. I base most of this off of the quest Diplomatic immunity, all of the troops we see are High Elven and the servants are all Bosmer and Khajiit. As for birthrates I would say the only ones who could keep up with the Humans in the Dominion are the Khajiit. I was under the impression the birthrate of Wood Elves was as low as the rest of the Elven races. And what do you mean by Goblin?

For the Empire you forgot the addition of Orcs being a resource pool for the Legion. The Orcs have always been a steady source to the Legion from every province, be they from Skyrim, High Rock or Hammerfell.

also there is a 50% chance of having the dragonborn on your side, who can call dragons and heros of old back to fight for him/her. I mean do they really need any advantages besides the pc?

Also i don't think skyrim could be taken by the altmer, at the same time i doubt the nords could really take summerset with out a giant stompy robot...

For this topic lets assume the Dragon born and dragons do not exist

where'd u get the 50% chance? no matter what side u choose in the lore, the dragonborn was there. whoever the dragonborn chose was the 1 that won. as long as he's alive, he will help...

if the altmer simply wait for him to die, they will win. as tough as the nords are, they wont stand up to the elves without paarthunax/the dragonborns help.

Why do you say that when the Redguards themselves stood up to the Dominion?

Oh no you don't this topic is to young to be swallowed up just yet >

Debate my minions!

Considering Skyrim's location, wouldn't a Thalmor force have to cross Morrowind, Cyrodiil, Hammerfell or Highrock in order to get there? If they are to attack Skyrim directly it would have to be from the sea - so a naval battle would then be the likely outcome. Seeing as Nords are great sailors that might just be in Skyrim's favour.
If the Thalmor attack on land they'll have to conquer another country/province and then Skyrim could send its troops to aid whoever is being attacked. So perhaps the terrain of Skyrim isn't all that relevant?

Sure they could, if they got the giants to help, which probably could be done somehow, plus with the mountains and such the Altmer would have a hard time getting around. But with no dragons or dragonborn it would be very hard for the Nords.

you all assume the Aldmeri dominion fight conventional warfare, which as many have stated in game they dont intend too.they have time on their side, so i would assume if lore follows a stormcloak win or if perhaps spurred on by the ideals behind the stormcloak rebellion, imperials across the empire mite rally behind Talos as a symbol to kick elven ass.Men will have a chance to survive if they act quickly, and skyrim should in no way take the defensive, cause if that is the case, the AD will simply do...nothing, but wait and bide their time all the while their agents work in the background sowing dissent and hunting down trouble makers and insurgents.if that is the case skyrim along with everyone else will fall.Folk tend to forget the elves can wait 700 hundred a thousand years, all the while playing the shadows and whispers and strings of tamriel, compared to perhaps after a generation or three, men will forget and move on, that is why i think it would be proactive if the Nords, imperial or not, men , all the races of men should stand together and quickly to strike.but me thinks the elder scrolls are gonna move towards a world without elves and beast races.. whatever happens it seems a "dark age" approaches.

Heh... 3rd or 4th time I'm reposting this?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War
Important points.
4E 173


4E 174


4E 175: The Battle of the Red Ring


So, what do we have? First, Thalmor forces in Hammerfell suffered heavy losses from Imperials. Then, when Decianus was leaving Hammerfell, he left a number of his soldiers there. At same time, Thalmor dedicated all of it's available forces to Cyrodiil, what resulted in a bloody battle with Thalmor's army defeated and Imperial army being on the brink of death.


And only THEN Reguards managed to take on the part of a part of the original Thalmor's force, and it took em 5 years and huge losses to draw those out.


...and Ulfric is barely able to deal with 1 weakened legion. Sure thing, after he'll get whole Skyrim, his power will increase, eventually (not right after the war, due to the amount of devastation he caused, as was mentioned by one of his men).

The whole Invalid's being left in Hammerfell was the only way the General could officially allow his Redguard troops to stay and defend their home land. Looks better on paper to leave invalids then to say that one third of your Legion deserted. And you can't say that the Invalids left there are the one reason why Hammerfell fought off the Dominion. Nearly every Male and Female warrior in the Empire has worn the Legion armor at some point. Hell a vast amount of Stormcloaks are Ex Legion.

And there was no part of part with the Dominions army that fought in the 5 year war with Hammerfell. The original army was destroyed to the man at the Battle of the Red Ring. That army didn't make it out of the Imperial province. The Redguards had to fight a new Army out of the Summerset Isle. And yet they still managed to fight the Dominion to a stand still. You also seem to be forgetting that Hammerfell itself was devastated during the great war, yet they fought on and made the Dominion sign a peace treaty that had the Dominion leave the entire Province.

Which brings up the point that if the loss of the Dominion's army in the Great war affected their ability to conquer Hammerfell. What right do they have dictating terms for the peace treaty. Honestly the Empire should of been making the terms at the White-Gold Concordat.

Fighting a Rebellion usually starts as a small and slow affair that either gets stamped out quickly or in the Stormcloaks case starts to gain steam and supporters as it drags on. I was under the impression the war was 30 years ago, so I'm not sure why everyone is under the assumption that the Legion in Skryim is weak. Over the 30 years I'm sure the majority of the Legions in the Empire are nearly reformed. Assuming The Imperial Legion is anything like a Roman Legion, that would be around 5000 soldiers. The Legion in Skyrim would most likely be composed of mostly Nordic legionnaires. Plus you have the Nords loyal to the Empire who don't serve. Any race would have their work cut out for them in this scenario.

Citation needed.


Citation needed.

From The Great War:


Beyond this, I've yet to see any source at all which confirms the Dominion brought a third army out of Alinor, but that said, I've seen no source stating they haven't. The point remains that the Alik'r forms a kind of barrier between north and south Hammerfell, one which the Redguard forces, as locals, would have a far great familiarity with and thus greater ability to cross back and forth. This ensures a comparative "safe zone" to the north from which to stage attacks without much fear of reprisal. What is in the middle of Skyrim? The plains of Whiterun hold. Hmmmmyeahhhhno.


Agreed. Even Tullius seem to think the terms svcked.


I believe it's Legate Rikke who says as much: she says that as recruitment quotas are down, they've been attempting to gather local auxiliaries. It is in this capacity that the Dovahkiin can join the Legion.

The invalids is conjecture on my part. I highly doubt any Nord, Imperial or Breton would stay in Hammefell when the Imperial city has been just sacked. Unless of course they were born In Hammerfell. It makes much more sense for a General to release the Redguard under his command so they can defend their homeland. Other wise he would see a mass desertion of his Redguard troops. It would just make a bad situation worse.

The comment on nearly every warrior in the Empire being ex Legion is and exaggeration on my part, but from what I've seen through Morrowind, Oblivion and now Skyrim, many people you meet in all 3 games seem to have Legion training. You talk to many current legion or Ex legion Nords through out Skyrim and playing through both Legion and Storm cloak quest lines. They state many times that many of the Storm cloaks ranks are ex Imperial legion. Galmar and Ulfric are Veterans of the Great war, a good reason why Ulfric started the Rebellion and why Galmar joined.

By the time the 5 year war started between the Dominion and Hammerfell the Dominion army on the mainland had been wiped out. The 5 year war started at 4E 175, one year after the Battle at Red Ring and the destruction of the Dominions main army. So unless the 5 year war was just a Cold war with Redguards and High Elves striking muscle poses at each other and doing the occasional snarl. The Dominion had to form another army for this war.

The 5 year war though I assume was mostly fought on the Southern coast line of Hammefell, which is temperate grass lands. The desert only really played a role during the great war.

Yes but 30 years of recruitment out of Skyrim would of filled up one of two Legions atleast. The slowing of recruitment was probably due the the Civil war. The nation was split in two and with many Nords flocking to the Stormcloaks cause. This would no doubt bite into the Legions recruitment. By the time the Dragon born jumped into the fray, the civil war had been raging since I think the Markarth incident. No doubt the Stormcloaks numbers started to increase over those years. Not to mention it seems many Nords were content to sit on the side lines and watch the civil war play out.

My Aldmeri pro-thalmor dragonborn wizard does not agree.

Lesser races will learn their place, THALMOR POWER!