She is Bxxxx, and she drop my fame, isn't that enough reason? :flamethrower:

Uhhh General-wait-and-see-Oliver you mean? Yeah im going to have to go with Moore on this one, she's actually PROACTIVE in her strategy instead of just sitting in her office in the middle of the dam waiting for the Legion to strike.

He is a coward.

No, he's a bureaucrat. A political general convinced of his own badass image. He is however, willing to stand and fight and is not completely incompetent, which counts for something. Oliver would be a good Lieutenant, but by no means a general.

Moore should be stopped at Colonel until she learns the arts of finesse, but thats normal for anyone walking that path to Generalship. Captains and Colonels need to be aggressive, but Generals need to temper that aggression with foresight and caution. Moore is still learning that last part.

Oliver though is far to cautious and not aggressive enough. That does not make him a coward though, or even a fool. Just a bad general, of which more exist than good ones even in real life.

Much as a hate to say it the best outright military leader on display in F:NV is freaking Elder McNamara, who managed to take command in the middle of a raging battle, lead a fighting retreat (likely being among the last to leave the field), get his men home and regroup. Yes, he got himself and his people into a near impossible position, but is fulling willing to admit that and is working to get them out of it. I greatly dislike the man, but acknowledge and respect his ability and those of his people. Sad that we have to be enemies, really.

I tend to agree,

Elder McNamara is in a bit of an impossible situation to begin with. He's lost 50% of his Chapter, not just his Paladins 50% of the CHAPTER, due to Father Elijah's gross incompetence and insanity. He was rightly dubbed a hero due to the events of Helios One but he's also a man who is rightly concerned that NCR is about to kill his remaining chapter (and his fears are JUSTIFIED as Colonel Moore *DOES* intend to wipe out the BOS if she can manage it). If you look at it from the perspective that he's dealing with Elijah's legacy, his position becomes more sympathetic.

He has a group of four paladins ready to MURDER poor Veronica for questioning him, Hardin is plotting to remove him from power, and Veronica is basically spreading "You know what - Father Elijah's ideas were AWESOME!" everywhere she goes.

Is he a weak leader? Well, compared to Elder Lyons yes, but even Elder Lyons wasn't able to keep his Chapter intact. Oddly, it's possible his seeming blind devotion to the Codex may well be the only thing that's keeping the Brotherhood of Steel intact.

I respect Col. Moore. She's probably not someone I'd "hang out" with, but I think she does a good job.

And a small part of me is attracted to her.

She wants you to kill the Brotherhood. Thats why everyone hates her and House.

Never mind that the Brotherhood area bunch of inbred idiots who'll willingly attach an explosive collar to a random wastelander, or massacre a Follower's outpost... They have power armour and laser guns! So Obviously they're the bestest faction ever!

Khans are allied with the Legion? Why am I not zerg rushed by them whenever I go into camp with them? I'm almost always Villified with the Legion, so I should be swarmed by Khans whenever I walk into their camp.

They are not allied with the Legion. They are being courted by the Legion, which you can abort when you tell them the horrible truth about the Legion's propensity for making deals with tribes in bad faith.

I remember reading somewhere that the backstory involved Colonel Hsu being passed over for the promotion that ultimately went to Oliver instead due to nepotism with President Kimball. Does anyone have a source for that?

I think Boone says it.

It is just poor strategy. All great nations/empires recuited other people to do a lot of the fighting for them. Let the BOS/Khans spend resources doing your fighting. And if they turn on you, they will be in a much weaker position. Would your rather fight a full strength BOS/Khans/Legion or fight those guys after they have been busy killing each other?


LOL, like strong women too! Married to one.

But, good soldiers does not mean a good General. You need a better straetgy then "kill everyone". Clearly the NCR is struggling in this campaign.

She's utterly in incapable of accepting any peaceful solution if its not forced on her. Bring her along for the diplomatic solution for the for the Kings' Gambit and it ends in blood. And as others have said she detests the idea of the peaceful solution to the Khans and the Kings. She only accepts those because she knows her superiors will force her to. Its a symptom of a larger problem. You claim what if the Brotherhood breaks the treaty? Bah they won't break it, the Elder sought peace. The one most likely to break the treaty is Moore. She belongs on the front lines but away from any real deicison making.

Actually, Oliver correctly assessed the op plan of the enemy. He put his marker down on a dam attack, and it came up spades. Mock him all you want, but he made the best strategic decision in the game. Ceasar attacking the dam is the worst, when he already had a foothold over the Colorado at Nelson and the Cove. He should have enveloped the dam from the south.
Rule #1 in warfare: Never start a land war in asia.
Rule #2: Never attack Moscow in the winter.
Rule #3: Never attack a fortified river crossing head on. Ever.

-Gunny out.

There is tough, Lanius tough, and then there is just plain old [censored]. She enjoys making her own life more difficult. If she wasn't plotting against House, and if she was more amenable to a peace treaty with the BoS(as in, no reputation loss) she might actually be a bit more respected. It's too bad she disappears after failing Don't Tread on the Bear! because I'd like to tell her to "GTFO new player"(WAIT, WHAT THE HELL? I can't even say n o o b?) like I did to Oliver.

She resorts to violence first, brutality second. I bet that if the Legion took women as soldiers, Moore would be a high ranking Legionary.

I can't blame her for the BOS thing. NCR's been fighting the for what (if Van Burn is canon) 28 years? Presumably, since she was a little girl? I really would have liked more info on the Brotherhood war and why exactly they've been fighting NCR. It would have added to her badassness if she had perhaps masterminded some of the chapters' defeats.

Re: Mister House, I can't be too harsh either since I killed him.

:)

Peoples View Of These Shadyer Groups Are A Little Misguided Though.We Base Are Opinions Of Kahns + The Like On Our Own Existence + Not Theirs.
For Instance The Khans,If You Were Livin In A World Like Fallout,Every Man For Himself,Impending Doom Around Every Corner,The Threat Of Nuclear War ever Present,who wouldnt do whatever it takes to survive,Not Sayin They Aint Maniacs But We Really Cant Concieve what Their Lives Are Like Realistically.Same Goes For All The Groups Really.

The reason Caesar chose to attack the dam directly is because it's a symbolic victory that matters Legion vs NCR and if Caesar can win in a head on battle then it will impact NCR morale than a flanking attack.

If that's his rationale, then he is the moron I think he is. That's the damn silliest reason for an operational plan I can think of.

-Gunny out.

@Beancounter you see there's one major problem with your strategy, oh wait a second I have to do something real quick. *Looks down scope and one shots a veteran legionary then breaks from cover and kills three more with a frag grenade* ok thats out of the way now. You see the problem is that at the time Moore orders a hit on the Khans and the Brotherhood the NCR is in the middle of a full on war, not really the best time to be taking chances trying to set up diplomatic relations with known enemies.
The Brotherhood is still involved in a war with the NCR, the only reason there isn't open fighting is because their in a lockdown in their bunker and the NCR doesn't have the time or the resources to hunt them down and engage them. From what we find out in the end game slides where you form a truce with the two it sounds like there is still fighting going on in other places between them.

And the Khans? She thinks that their joining with the Legion, taking them out is the only smart thing to do. And its been awhile so I might be wrong but I think she actually gives you the option to break the union between them but still says she doesn't care how it gets done as long as it gets done. So basiclly she's not going to take the chance on either one of them being a threat when the Legion attacks the dam and she deals with them in the most efficient way.

And Vukodlak thats a good idea, stick her on the front line but don't let her make any of the real decisions, sounds like a recipe for victory to me.

Now if you fellas will excuse me I have to get back on my watch, dont want any of those Legion scumbags sneaking up on me.

Which doesn't make any sense at all because either way he wins the war, the only difference is if he attacks the dam head on is he suffers much more casulties. Hell of a leader that Caesar.

So he's both a madman and a complete blithering idiot.

Moving a few patrols or scouns across the Colorado is one thing, but moving an army is another. If Caesar tried to move a large enough force to flank Hooverdam he'd be noticed. Possibly giving the NCR time to wipe out one group before the other was in position. If half the legion leaves the fort then the NCR moving into attack is a real possibility. For years the NCR was afraid to make a major push against the Legion. No reason to give them an opening.

Additionally he had a flanking plan, a better one. His troops would pour up the access valves water would flow through if the dam was fully operational. One of the optional quests during the final battle is to close them and cutt of the legion attack It catches the NCR completely off guard. I've gone through the Hooverdam battle for all factions and can say if not for the Courier the legion would have won.

The dam also had to fall, its a massive fortress and well fortified, going around it won't do Caesar much good is the NCR can use it as a staging area to assault his forces as they try and secure the rest of the Mojave. And as a functioning power generator its far to valuable for Caesar to destroy. Its also the quickest way to capture the Mojave, take the dam and the NCR retreat and your free to shoot them in the ass while they turn tail and run.

We're gonna disagree here. He's got substantial troops accross the river without much resisitance from the NCR. Once you get a bridgehead, all of the fancy books tell you to exploit the gain. I'm sorry, but it's strategy 101 stuff here. You simply do not make a frontal assault on a fortified position, much less a fortified river crossing unless it is absolutely unavoidable. Or, you're a sadist. And want to have a short reign as dictator. Take my point for what it is: If I ever presented an operations plan based on the tactial situation along the Colorado that included a frontal assualt on the dam, I would have had my ass chewed right off.

-Gunny out.

I wouldn't call Cottonwood Cove substantial and Nelson is held in check(barley) by Forlorn Hope and there are Ranger camps all over watching for any major movements of legion forces. What he has across the river isn't enough. Any flakning manuveer could be easily intercepted by forces at Camp Gulf and the ranger stations could easily give enough warning to mine the path. Making getting troops to both sides of the dam a difficult task. He must attack the dam to, If the dam falls the NCR will retreat rather then become more intrenched.

If your saying he can't attack the dam then I guess Caeser should have given up and gone home.

Your also completey ignoring the fact it wasn't a frontal assault. If it was a frontal assault then everyone in the legion would have been charging across the top. That didn't happen, the bulk of the legioners came up the intake tunnels bypassing the fortifications and overwhelming the NCR defenders as they swarmed up from below. During Eureka one of the optional parts of the quest is to flush the intake tunnels their using. The best flanking manuveer is the one they don't see coming until its arrived.

They have already raided as far west as Nipton. It's a stone's throw to the Mojave Outpost and the MSR. You cut the supply line and you can take the dam anytime you want. I wouldn't drive north from Nelson/Cottonwood Cove. I Drive west. You seperate the Mojave NCR from their reinforcements and you can defeat them in detail, one garrison at a time. All you gotta do is hold one pass. That's how I would plan the campaign. Drive west, take and hold the pass, wheel north to envelope Vegas them Isolate and attack the dam from both sides.

I understand your point about the deception plan during the dam assault. In like mind, you're completely ignoring the fact that the best strategy would be to not attack the dam at all, frontally or by deception. It makes a great video game story, but it svcks as a military strategy.

-Gunny out.

I see a couple problems in your plan, the Legion would have to capture the Mojave Outpost, they wouldn't get a large force there unseen, they got a small party to Nipton and razed it to the ground, and it wasn't unseen the NCR sends someone. (you) to find out what happened. Getting more then a small group there wouldn't go unnoticed. That narrow pass would be an easy place for the NCR to fortify themselves, while the legion gets intrenched fighting to take the pass the forces from Camp Gulf and McCarren would swoop in from behind and the legion would be the ones being flanked. Why is attacking a fortified river crossing a bad idea but attacking a narrow pass where the enemy can attack from California and the Mojave behind you a good one?.

Also Camp McCarren and Vegas can both be considered heavy fortifications, while your trying to capture them one at a time or together, and hold the pass.(assuming you captured it). The NCR sends the reinforcements south, then east before they head up the river and attack Cottonwood Cove. Or they blow up the fence at Searchlight Airport and move in through there. Either way your entire plan to cut off the supply line went up in smoke.

Lets remember that for a decade the NCR has held the Mojave without a second battle of the hooverdam, so getting troops around might not be as easy as you say. The dam is of vital strategic value. Other areas of the Mojave are strained because most everything is going to defend the dam. Take the pressure off the dam by sending a large force elsewhere and the NCR can reroute resources.

Here's another key factor the intake valve entrance might not last forever if the NCR discovers that weakness your secret tunnel into the enemy fortfication is useless. Via those tunnels the legion can
Blitzkrieg the dam via the intake tunnels take out general Oliver. Then their in possession of the fortress and the vast stock piles of ammuntion ment to hold a frontal assault from over the top. By this point you flush the intake tunnels and the NCR can either retreat or throw themselves at the fortification.

Its like having a secret tunnel into the castle's cellers. When you have that you don't [censored] foot around with a typical siege tactic, you use that advantage while you have it and take the enemy unaware from the inside out. Its not a fortress when you know the backway in.