Conjuration breaks EVERYTHING

Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:27 am

To a certain extent with the skill system generally in place in TES games this is unavoidable. Things can be put in place to restrict what can and can't actually level a skill. And we've seen some of this in Skyrim compared to previous games. Though unless you restrict things A LOT this will to some extent be an unavoidable aspect of the game.
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Chloé
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:44 am

i agree, i keep reading various threads saying stuff like, enchanting broke the game, bows broke the game, sneaking broke the game, geez, you're suppose to be able to get powerful if you want, its like they want it stricter for everyone else and a lot of imposed restrictions, bethesda isn't about hand tying people and imposing lots of strict guidlines on how their games are played..freedom is what its about, its an rpg, its what you make of it, if you want to power level and put all your resources in one or two areas etc, you get to be super good in those areas, if you put a lot of work in an area you should be rewarded, its not a game where you need to worry about how other people are playing and thats what it comes down to, most of these type of complainers want limits imposed on everyone else because they decided to "exploit or power level" something, they want other people to be limited. it ain't gonna happen.

I agree it is silly to complain about this conjuration thing, since it is just simulating what normally happens while playing the game. Obviously combat improves all combat skills...

But as for the other things, I appreciate it when certain limits are enforced and they can be enforced without limiting options. There is a cap on armor and magic resistance because those limits make the game more enjoyable for many players. Putting limits on other percentages (such as spell cost reduction) should work the same. If they wanted to provide the option of achieving whatever effect you get from maxing these percentages out, they can provide that through other means such as unique items, shouts, etc. without ruining the progression of important game mechanics.


Edit:
I'd also appreciate caps on cross skill multipliers so that Alchemy or Enchant, etc. cannot improve any other skill past a limit of however effective that skill would be once maxing out its skill and perk tree. This would eliminate all of the glitches and game breaking crafting. Providing godlike options beyond that are fine by me, but I would much prefer them to be options that feel natural (like how you had to work extra hard to get master level spells, you can't just stumble upon it by casting fireballs.)
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Annick Charron
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:10 am

If it's fun for you, enjoy! If it's not fun, play differently. Personally, I'd find it pretty boring to fight the same mob over and over. I like a bit of sight-seeing and varied loot with my fighting.
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Jeff Tingler
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:46 am

I wasn't able to find any sort of thread that talked about this, so I figured that I would address this:

Conjuration can break literally every single combat skill

No, not really. It just summons a weak character you can practice with. Which you can just as easily find by fast-travelling to a bandit camp, of which there are millions.

What's really game-breaking is using crafting skills to raise huge amounts of money, then use that money to buy training. But this is all moot. How easy or hard the game is is not really relevant for a single player game. You aren't required to use or ignore exploits, shortcuts, etc. Play the game how you wish, no one will censure you for it.
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Emmie Cate
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:32 am

Don't believe me? Let's go over the skills you can improve using it, and a short bit how:

-Conjuration, by using the skill (summoning, and using weapon)
-One Handed, attacking summoned creature
-Two Handed, attacking summoned creature
-Archery, attacking summoned creature
-Sneak, shooting/stabbing summoned creature in the back
-Illusion, you can use on the summoned creature
-Destruction, using the spells on the summoned creature
-Restoration, healing yourself after allowing yourself to be hurt
-Heavy/Light Armor, allow yourself to be attacked

So yeah, just a tip, Conjuration breaks everything.


How is it game breaking to train your skills??????? It is another fun strategy to play TES games.

If you, yourself, don't like it, don't do it.
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Eire Charlotta
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:42 am

Man, some people just don't seem to understand the concept of role-playing. I guess they're too used to "role playing games" with strictly regimented levelling, strict character class systems, etc. The Elder Scrolls is not those games.

Here's what I mean about it being role-playing - there's nothing wrong, from a game world/role play perspective of viewing your character as someone practicing their skills. It is part of elder scrolls lore that npcs and the player character can choose to "train" their skills by doing things like summoning an Atronach in the mages' guild/college, and attacking it, to level up conjuration, destruction, restoration, alteration or any other combat related skill. If you don't think that's fun, JUST DON'T DO IT. In previous Elder Scrolls games, I sometimes did that sort of levelling, but mostly I just let levels come as they came, and played the game.

However, sometimes, if you've "painted your character into a corner" by levelling the "wrong" skills, and find yourself getting creamed everywhere you go because the game has levelled up enemies to your level, but you have trained up mostly crafting/speech/mercantile/lockpick/acrobatics/etc (yes, I know merc, acro, and some others doesn't exist in Skyrim, but speaking about the series in general at the moment), then the ability to train on a summoned pet can be very useful to allow you to 'unbreak' your character.

TLDR: Look, you're not forced to play that way. If you don't like it, don't do it. Stop complaining about trivial, optional things, since others sometimes like them.
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Kirsty Wood
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:37 pm

#1 rule for enjoying your TES experience: Don't do anything that feels "grindy."

There are 3 skills I think are broken in this game: smithing, enchanting, and destruction.

Let's say you know that grinding smithing/enchanting will make you too OP too early, so you settle for not buying ANY mats and only building the skills with mats you've found. You mine everything you come across, you kill all those deer for leather, and you soul trap everything before you kill it. Even at this pace of leveling, smithing/enchanting will be maxed well before any of your combat skills. At low/mid combat skills, upgrading gear through smithing is just ridiculous. Enchanting 100 offers you game-breaking survivability and damage output, regardless of the base stats of your gear or you actual skill at using them. In other words, smithing and enchanting are broken because even if you avoid grinding it, you're still way too OP.

Destruction is broken because there's really only one viable way to gear yourself to not svck, and that gearing strategy leads to pretty big problems. The lack of damage scaling means that as your skill increases and you and your opponents level up, it's harder and harder to kill things with destruction. They've got more life, your spells still do the same damage. +Magicka and +magicka regen aren't viable gearing strategies (try it past level 30 and you'll see what I mean), and that just leaves -% casting cost. This is where the game gets broken. Sure you don't have to go for 100%. But if you don't, you're forced to limit yourself intentionally, constantly thinking "hmm, is this % too hard or too easy?"

Conjuration, though, is not broken. Sure, you can spam it to raise your conjuration skill. But you can do that with illusion and alteration too. All of the other skills you listed are easily powerleveled without conjuration. Essentially conjuration provides infinite targets for you to practice on. As mentioned, essential npcs can't die so they can serve the same function.

Everyone grinds through once or twice. If you're too stupid to realize that grinding will ruin your fun, you're too stupid for me to care if you ever find joy in this game.

I mostly agree with you, but I disagree with your statement that enchanting and smithing are OP because they make you too powerful too early. Perhaps they are too easy to get to 100 too quickly (I agree with most of the people who say it's silly you can get to 100 smithing by grinding out low-level daggers or leather armor; should get diminishing returns on that so you have to smith higher level stuff).

However, should *any skill* that you've level to 100 and bought 10 perks in be *very powerful*? How come no one complains that at 100 with a weapon skill, and all perks, even using a relatively low-quality weapon, you can do hella damage and kill high level enemies? Why shouldn't someone with high smithing and/or high enchanting be able to have weapons that do a lot of damage even with relatively low levels of skill in using the weapon? Why distinguish between skills like that? As another example, If someone levels up Alchemy until they're a Master, and has low levels in other skills, why shouldn't their poisons do a lot of damage even if they have low weapon skills, why shouldn't they be able to heal a lot of damage and stamina with their pots, etc? If you concentrate on only Destruction, you could probably have Master Destruction by what, like level 8 or 9? Wouldn't you absolutely smash everything you came across at those low levels with your destruction spells? Why would smithing or enchant or alchemy be any different?

I guess people just don't like the idea that you can be so powerful without having 3 or 4 skills close to/at 100?
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Iain Lamb
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:59 am

why are you so worried how other people level up? shooting a lot of deer etc is a good way to level up archery, are you gonna say something about that too? you need to just play your game and not worry about how everyone else levels up.
But the OP doesn't like the way he levels up. He feels like he's being rewarded for boring behavior (which he is).

That is bad design, but it's still more of a player issue than a game design issue, because of the developer console.

If you just want skill-ups without playing the game to get them, you can just set the values to whatever you want. There is absolutely no reason to sit in a corner button mashing and crying about how boring the game is. (Unless you're on a 360 or PS3, in which case I can only say: too bad, if you insist on powerlevelling, it's going to be boring. :violin: )
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Andrea P
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:17 pm

he will have a higher level conjuration skill. game-fu**ing-breaking. needs to be fixed asap.
It's not a PROBLEM! It is fully legit! Use the school very much? WELL HAVE SOME LEVELS! It makes sense!
If you don't like it, DO NOT USE IT!
It is a singleplayer game so no one is forcing you to do it!
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Mason Nevitt
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:29 pm

There's no such thing as playing an Elder Scrolls game wrong.

This is true in the sense of you choose your own adventure. But power leveling then complaining the game's broken is beyond dumb. Don't conjure things then power level, conjure things to help you in combat.

Problem solves. Play the game the way it was meant to be played and don't essentially cheat and it's fine.
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FLYBOYLEAK
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:31 am

To the OP, isn't every TES game a set of choices.
Isn't one of the biggest choices if you are going to spam skills/perks/levels and how you are going to incorporate that into everyday game play or not?
Also doing what you describe, to me is just practicing, don't you think Tiger Woods, Aaron Rogers and Cliff Lee practice their craft? Don't you think the Dale Chihuly practice with mouth blown class before creating this http://www.chihuly.com/exhibitions.aspx?
Look you can work this game anyway you want but to me if you are spamming skills and such just to power level and not as a part of role play it seems like you should take that into account.
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Penny Courture
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:34 pm

However, should *any skill* that you've level to 100 and bought 10 perks in be *very powerful*? How come no one complains that at 100 with a weapon skill, and all perks, even using a relatively low-quality weapon, you can do hella damage and kill high level enemies? Why shouldn't someone with high smithing and/or high enchanting be able to have weapons that do a lot of damage even with relatively low levels of skill in using the weapon?

Right - you are mostly correct. But there is a difference between "very powerful" and "overpowered" - when you are talking about armour that makes you completely invulnerable, or a weapon that will 1-shot absolutely everything in the game, something has gone wrong somewhere. Regarding the perk investment, the number-crunching munchkins have narrowed it down to a mere ~20 perks, and that's to make an unkillable god character. In some of the setups only one of those perks is in smithing.

That's another problem - at these levels of brokeness, it's only a small difference in damage to go from using Steel to Daedric weapons, and no difference in the armour beyond weight. Numbers like that simply should not happen and that they do actually limits the player because you need to constantly be making sure you aren't doing something that will make you "too powerful" instead of just being able to play freely.

In Skyrim it's particularly bad for people who gravitate towards crafting in their RPGs, because exactly as DrKvothe described, even if you only level those skills "naturally" on the mats you are collecting as you adventure, they still outpace your combat skills by a considerable margin and you still end up overpowered unless you consciously avoid combining your skills in any way.
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Sami Blackburn
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:36 pm

This is a single player game, balance doesnt come it to it. TES has always featured ways to level up that didnt involve direct combat, this is no dfferent. And if someone wants to stand around for days on end casting summons to kill them, let them its their game to play as they want.

Anyone complaining about it is a moron frankly, its got zero bearing on how you play your game.
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Baylea Isaacs
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:49 am

So if you shoot at targets to get better at archery you are not cheating. But if you summon Atronachs and fight them to get better at what you choose to invest time in getting better at that is... cheating? Logic fail.
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Rude Gurl
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:29 pm

If the things listed in the original post are bothering someone, my advice is to simply not abuse them. This isn't an MMO where you have to worry about exploits because others can abuse them (and then you're forced to occupy the same game world with these cheaters and their imbalanced gains). Instead, it's just you and a bunch of NPCs who follow their own strict code of rules, and I think you're ultimately expected to police your own actions.

Because of that, stuff like this is on the very bottom of a huge list of things I would like to see developers spend more time on. Where as in an MMO it would be up at the top of that list. Sure, it would be nice if all these exploitable tactics were plugged up in Skyrim, but there are so many other important things to work on, and the truth is these exploits and their consequences can be completely avoided by simply choosing not to abuse them.
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Janeth Valenzuela Castelo
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:39 pm

If the things listed in the original post are bothering someone, my advice is to simply not abuse them. This isn't an MMO where you have to worry about exploits because others can abuse them (and then you're forced to occupy the same game world with these cheaters and their imbalanced gains). Instead, it's just you and a bunch of NPCs who follow their own strict code of rules, and I think you're ultimately expected to police your own actions.

Because of that, stuff like this is on the very bottom of a huge list of things I would like to see developers spend more time on. Where as in an MMO it would be up at the top of that list. Sure, it would be nice if all these exploitable tactics were plugged up in Skyrim, but there are so many other important things to work on, and the truth is these exploits and their consequences can be completely avoided by simply choosing not to abuse them.

The problem is that it isnt even abuse.

If my battlemage wants to invest his/her time honing her skills fighting summoned creatures, that is completely acceptable from an RP perspective aswell as from a gameplay perspective.
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tannis
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:40 am

Conjuration, eh? Well my one handed is 0 and I just found a really nice one handed weapon. Let's see how do I raise my skill a bit fatser. Oh, Conjuration that'll work. Good find. :wink_smile:
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Paul Rice
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:12 am

In the official Skyrim guide, there's an advice on improving skills. It says
"In general, it's better to increase your skills and level up narutally, rather than trying to find ways to exploit the game. In fact, it may make your adventure harder, since you'll lack the gear and tactics needed to survive higher-level combat."
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DAVId MArtInez
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:37 am

In the official Skyrim guide, there's an advice on improving skills. It says
"In general, it's better to increase your skills and level up narutally, rather than trying to find ways to exploit the game. In fact, it may make your adventure harder, since you'll lack the gear and tactics needed to survive higher-level combat."

Pretty much this. Sure you will level up faster doing things this way but at the cost of potential loot, money, and other such necessities.
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DarkGypsy
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:48 am

I use conjuration, but not to break the game. Why would anyone do that? There's no fun in that... *sigh*
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Noraima Vega
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:42 pm

1. crafting skills should not give level ups
2. grinding should be negatively rewarded to the point where it becomes pointless - ie making an iron dagger at smithing 90 gives so little xp as to make it uneconomical time wise.. reward making better items ..
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Eibe Novy
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:41 am

Playing breaks EVERYTHING!

Wow, seriously... I've played MMOs, most of those are grind-fests. If you really play to grind a single player game, whats the point in complaining about it?

One of my chars has level 91 Conjuration (by normal means), level 79 Destruction (normal again), and is only level 36. Restoration and Illusion are up there too, but not as high (well, I think Restoration is at least 75+, I never look).

I trained to get to 90, so I could get the quest to get the higher level spells, but sadly, until I get to 100 in Conjuration for the perk to drop Master spells by 50%, I can't even cast any of them... So how is that breaking my game? It's not. I have the spells I wanted, just can't use them yet. Thats ok, I bought the other spells I didn't have (the storm and frost atronachs). So fun seeing some ninja up on a ridge shooting lightning at me, summon a storm and sit back and watch (since they're immune to lightning), 10 seconds later a ninja comes sailing to the ground *splat*. Ooo, lets resurrect that. :biggrin: I can always tell I've been somewhere when there's piles of ash all over the place. I rarely leave dead bodies around, because if you come across someone who raises people to help, you'll get outnumbered faster than you wish. That and they're SO the best conversationalists (and that was sarcasm, sorry, no warning on that one).

GuruSR.
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Enie van Bied
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:38 am

I wouldn't say it "breaks" anything, it's just a boring system to use to gain more power. I was resurrecting everything I killed, then I'd slash it with a very weak weapon to build everything up. I'd cast friendly spells at shopkeepers. A LOT. You just find a way, whatever means you have the patience for, and you gain your power. Just like any other game. In standard old-school styles you run around fighting random encounters for XP and you nearly go insane doing so. But we do it anyway.
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JERMAINE VIDAURRI
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:58 am

I think it's official now - everything in Skyrim breaks everything else. :shakehead:
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kyle pinchen
 
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Post » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:45 am

Sounds like a boring way to play. What's the point of playing a game if you just turn it into a repetitive job-like task?
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GEo LIme
 
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