[Monika Fiolek]

I think this must be one of the most discussed topics in this forum, we are onto our third thread now!
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1343497-heightmap-editing-and-world-editing/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1345519-creating-new-worldspaceshow-to-get-around-the-broken-ck-features/

If one of the developers see this! The LOD generator in the CK is completely broken and useless to us, it does not create LOD texture files properly.


Rundown of bugs with the Creation Kit LOD generator:
- Textures generated have black parts on them....sometimes around the cell borders, somethings just covering half the texture.
- Tree LOD does not work. The LOD meshes do not dissappear when you get close, you can see them sticking out of the trees.
- LOD objects are often not UV mapped correctly leading to bad LOD.

Bugs when importing heightmaps:
- Clicking on the overview asked if you want to save the current texture, which causes a crash 100% of the time.
- Crashes for most people.


Tools some people are using to get around using the CK for this:
Oscape Thread: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1320917-wip-preview-oscape-landscape-lod-generator/
TESAnnwyn and TES4qLOD Thread: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1311730-release-tesannwyn-and-tes4qlod-for-skyrim/

I haven't used them yet, so you'll have to follow some other instructions on how to use them. Maegfaer and thekarithian, can you put up some updated information?

And some proof of LOD working now from Maegfaer and the MERP project:
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/6223/2012021300018.jpg
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/7513/2012021300011.jpg
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5659/2012021300012x.jpg
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/156/2012021300013.jpg
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/1994/2012021300019.jpg


Onto copy-pasted info from the past thread:

Creating a Worldspace:
Create your worldspace in the worldspace menu....its pretty easy. Fill in the data as needed (look at other worldspaces for what is required) and refer to the wiki: http://www.creationkit.com/World_Spaces


Heightmaps:

The Heightmap editor was originally built for Oblivion as a tool to make large-scale changes to the terrain of a worldspace. Since Oblivion, Bethesda Game Studios has moved towards using third-party applications (such as Photoshop) to generate and edit a grayscale image which is then imported into the Creation Kit via the Heightmap Editor. From there, the BGS team makes fine adjustments by directly editing Landscape on a per-cell basis.

Wiki: http://www.creationkit.com/Heightmap_Editing

Most people have only had success by creating heightmaps outside of the CK and importing in the .RAW image/s. The .raw image represents a Quad which is 32x32 cells. THe default viewing size for a quad in the CK is 4 on the screen and the position 0,0 of the map is location at the center point between quad; -1_0, 0_0, -1_-1, 0_-1. So if you want to build around the 0,0 point of your world, you will need 4 quads of heightmap. See this diagram for more infomation:http://cs.elderscrolls.com/images/8/80/Overviewgrid.jpg

To import a .raw, you need to put it in your Skyrim/Data/HeightField Folder (make it if it doesn't exist). It must then be named for whatever quad it is supposed to fill. For my world of 4 quads I imported -1_0.raw, 0_0.raw, -1_-1.raw, 0_-1.raw

.raw files also need special fomratting as per the wiki: Use 1024x1024 16-bit RAW format images with Raw Option settings: Header: 0, Non-interleaved Order, Count: 1, Depth: 16 Bits, Byte Order: IBM PC.

Once you have your files in place, load up your mod iwth the CK, and open it in the heightmap window, go file -> import and a loading bar will start. WHen you get a "File in use error - Waiting" bow come up, click cancel each time. Once complete close the window. Your hieghtmap should be imported, load it in the render window to be sure.

I would also suggest removing the .raw files from the folder then (put them somewhere safe) as it sort of looks like the CK auto-imports them when you open the heightmap editor.

Now remember, this tool is very resource intensive and if your computer isnt fairly beefy expect crashes. A soon as you can, save your mod. I am able to (though I hear others just get crashing) to use the other tools in the hieghtmap and then click 'save' to save my changes. However I am running an i7 (2600k) with 8 Gigs of RAM, less hardware may not be able to handle it.


Regions:
Regions still work the same as previous games, and seem to be fairly bugfree, though can be a bit crash happy when you generate.

Since its the same, these tutorials from Fallout and still aply:
http://www.truancyfactory.com/tutorials/fallout3/fallout_regions.html

I've also found the GECK WIki to be useful:
http://geck.gamesas.com/index.php/Regions


Worldspace .LOD file
Every worldspace requires a .lod file that says how big it is. The CK will generate one for you, but you must have a lodsettings folder in your Skyrim/Data folder for it to work.....for some reason if the folder isn't there for it ot put the file in, it does not make the file.


Creating the LOD:
This is where it gets tricky. The CK's built in LOD generator is broken, it does not make the textures properly for the LOD meshes. It will also destroy your heightmap if you try to generate LOD textures and your working in an .esp.

For that reason, Maegfaer has written this guide to using Oscape to create the LOD.

To generate LOD with Oscape:

1. Make sure your heightfield ESM (can't be ESP, Oscape won't read ESP worldspaces for some reason) is activated in your mod load order list.
2. Start Oscape, make sure that it's in Skyrim mode (under 'Game').
3. Click Fill.
4. Select your worldspace in the list, check feature-map and surface-map boxes.
5. Browse to desired output folder, doesn't have to be in your Skyrim directory, anywhere will do.
6. Click Extract. If you get an error message that it can't find the worldspace, close Oscape and return to step 2. This always happens for me, second try does work.
7. Wait until it is done, Oscape should automatically switch to the second tab (Preview).
8. Usually all the data here is already correct, it will give you rough view of the RAW file it extracted (don't skip all the previous steps because you already have a RAW file btw, Oscape's is different) and in the tables you can select which area will be generated. Default is everything.
9. Go to the next tab 'Generator'.
10. The first value you should change is 'Target of max. resolution'. Try a value of 728000. Don't ask me details, I don't know all the details how it works, but this is a good value for my map. Higher and it crashes for me.
11. Under that, make sure the 'Meshes', 'Normals' and 'Colors' are enabled.
12. For 'Meshes', disable DirectX and Wavefront.
13. For 'Normals' and 'Colors', disable PNG, PPM and all the resolutions except for 1024 (or if you prefer a different resolution choose that).
14. At the bottom select the output folder, can be anywhere. Click Generate.
15. When it is done, Oscape switches to the 'Installer' tab. Enable all the 'Install' boxes here. At the bottom of the tab browse to your Skyrim Data directory. Click install.
16. When installing the textures, Oscape always gives me errors that it can't convert the .dds files. I always press Retry and then it seems to work (keep holding down Enter if you get thousands of messages).

[Fam Mughal]

Just as an addition, I'm pretty sure Oscape is reading the worldspace from my ESP.

[Claudia Cook]

I am just uploading my esm by ftp, so once thats up, Maegfaer if you could do the honours.

[Blaine]

If we have a full definition of the lodsettings I'll add support for that. This is what's known from the the meshes:

sovngarde:		 0, 0	-24,-32		48,40skuldafnworld:		 0,-1	  0,-21		60,39markarthworld:		 0, 0	-48,-44		 0, 4	seems full of crap as well beyond -32, probably leftovers from a previous generationjaphetsfollyworld:	-1, 2	 -9, -6		 3, 6deepwoodredoubtworld:	-3,-1	-39, -1		-3,35blackreach:		 1,-1	-23, -9		 5,19

name:

The structure so far seems

struct {short left;short top;short right;short bot;int minimum_tile_size; /*4 for all, to have 4x4 on LOD 0 */int maximum_tile_size; /* 32 for a, except japhets */};

Confirmations? So there is no origin in it. Where is the origin?

Edit: Okay, I see origin is meaningless. Diversion from the [0,0] centered lattice is done at the left/top side. See deepwoodredoubt, left is FFD9, clearly not on the regular grid.
Edit: I we are crazy we can test the engine on tile-size 64x64 and see if computers explode

So I was generating some LOD for my land with Oscape and it got the 250000 resolution and said something like 'This area has too many triangles' then stopped generating... What does that mean? O.o

It means you're still missing an intuition of mesh-density. BTR files can hold maximum 32k points/triangles. Skyrim has ~1000 points per 4x4 tile. The dropdown has 500 precaclculations for you, variations of the maximum (X.0/32400) and Skyrim's default (X.0/1000). The total number of points of course depends on your WS-size, MERP could have 8 million, some island has barely 30000 (! yes that low). The CK would make 4000 points/triangles for an island inside a 8x8 area. 1000 in each 4x4 tile. It's just math and intuition what's the correct number. That's why there are 500 presets - which are relative to your tile-count, so you don't need that much math, just the intution.

[Esther Fernandez]

Sweet...well I got the overview panel working in the heightmap editor, basically you click view -> regenerate overview. Then after that click on the overview to move around the quads. Every time you click it will ask to save the current texture....select no each time and you're good.

[Yama Pi]

I can confirm that making working, textured LOD (with water!) is indeed possible, even on a mid-range system. I think you've found all the work-arounds, at least for landscaping LOD (not sure about models yet, haven't explored it).
Looks nice: http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/6465/screenshot10yr.jpg

Has anyone successfully used the region generator? My results are horribly horribly regular and look terrible in general; I'm wondering if this is a bug, or if I'm doing something very wrong in the generation settings. I've poked around the FO3 wiki, but it doesn't seem to say how to generate decent looking terrain.

[Daniel Holgate]

MERP's most experienced region generator guy says it works perfectly fine, it's just hard to learn at first.

[ANaIs GRelot]

It means you're still missing an intuition of mesh-density. BTR files can hold maximum 32k points/triangles. Skyrim has ~1000 points per 4x4 tile. The dropdown has 500 precaclculations for you, variations of the maximum (X.0/32400) and Skyrim's default (X.0/1000). The total number of points of course depends on your WS-size, MERP could have 8 million, some island has barely 30000 (! yes that low). The CK would make 4000 points/triangles for an island inside a 8x8 area. 1000 in each 4x4 tile. It's just math and intuition what's the correct number. That's why there are 500 presets - which are relative to your tile-count, so you don't need that much math, just the intution.

You'll have to forgive me, but... wut.

So, I need to set the max. resolution to a number that wont go over 32400 total triangles? (I think is what you're saying? ) I'll try some more settings after school to see if I can get one to work.

Has anyone successfully used the region generator? My results are horribly horribly regular and look terrible in general; I'm wondering if this is a bug, or if I'm doing something very wrong in the generation settings. I've poked around the FO3 wiki, but it doesn't seem to say how to generate decent looking terrain.

MERP's most experienced region generator guy says it works perfectly fine, it's just hard to learn at first.

Yup, and Soolie showed us this picture, done entirely with the generator:
http://i.imgur.com/nQiGn.jpg
I would like for him to show up and explain some of it too us, because, while I only played with it for like 30 minutes, I couldn't even begin to make it look remotely natural.

[Juan Suarez]

I can confirm that making working, textured LOD (with water!) is indeed possible, even on a mid-range system. I think you've found all the work-arounds, at least for landscaping LOD (not sure about models yet, haven't explored it).
Looks nice: http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/6465/screenshot10yr.jpg

Has anyone successfully used the region generator? My results are horribly horribly regular and look terrible in general; I'm wondering if this is a bug, or if I'm doing something very wrong in the generation settings. I've poked around the FO3 wiki, but it doesn't seem to say how to generate decent looking terrain.

Region editor is fine for me, Though if I try and generate like 20x20 cells it crashes

It has one hell of a learning curve, and I spent several hours just making a very simple tree layout......I remember reading somewhere that when creating a world, you will spend about 2 weeks doing the regions before you even start....and that sounds about right, it takes a lot of work to make a good looking region.

[Cartoon]

Yup, and Soolie showed us this picture, done entirely with the generator:
http://i.imgur.com/nQiGn.jpg
I would like for him to show up and explain some of it too us, because, while I only played with it for like 30 minutes, I couldn't even begin to make it look remotely natural.

30 mins is just not long enough.....as far as complexity, the region editor is one of the toughest parts of the CK (or CS) that I have ever learnt. Best way to learn is just to load up some Oblivion Regions in the CS, and look how they are made (since Skyrim doesnt have object regions) and that s a good starting point on what to put in for the values of things.

[Adam]

Region editor is fine for me, Though if I try and generate like 20x20 cells it crashes

It has one hell of a learning curve, and I spent several hours just making a very simple tree layout......I remember reading somewhere that when creating a world, you will spend about 2 weeks doing the regions before you even start....and that sounds about right, it takes a lot of work to make a good looking region.

Mind giving us some pointers so we can cut some edge off that learning curve? I'm trying to have all (3) of my small regions generated and lookin' good by sometime this weekend, so, any tips would be awesome.

How did you set up the whole parent/child thing? Also, can you paint textures into a region too? I can't seem to find where to do that, but I swear it was possible.

30 mins is just not long enough.....as far as complexity, the region editor is one of the toughest parts of the CK (or CS) that I have ever learnt. Best way to learn is just to load up some Oblivion Regions in the CS, and look how they are made (since Skyrim doesnt have object regions) and that s a good starting point on what to put in for the values of things.

Actually, that is a great place to start.

Pffff except I have the v1.0 so I could generate lip files for my previous mods, I'll have to get the latest version so I can actually open Oblivion.esm. To the internet!!!

[trisha punch]

good tip, to make things appear more random then in the grid, make them have a really low radius (like 20) and a really low density (as in 0.1). Make a 2x2 area for you to generate into and just keep generating stuff until you learn what does what.

[Stacy Hope]

You'll have to forgive me, but... wut.

So, I need to set the max. resolution to a number that wont go over 32400 total triangles? (I think is what you're saying? ) I'll try some more settings after school to see if I can get one to work.

I'm saying you shouldn't go above 1000 points per tile, if you don't have a reason to do so.

[Rusty Billiot]

Developers are clearly paying attention. http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1348350-admins-are-bethesda-intending-to-patch-the-ck-or-is-this-it/

[Dean Brown]

Slightly offtopic, but how would one go about generation regions? I see no "Generate Regions" function anywhere.

[Ludivine Poussineau]

Slightly offtopic, but how would one go about generation regions? I see no "Generate Regions" function anywhere.

Use the wiki's linked above, but to access it click World > Regions on the top toolbar.

I'm saying you shouldn't go above 1000 points per tile, if you don't have a reason to do so.

Ah, right. I shall try doing 1000pts/file and see if that works.

EDIT: It worked, thank you good sir!

[Curveballs On Phoenix]

Small update to say that textures generation in CK is in fact, not broke... Compression is however.

If you generate texture source texture only they are full and no black lines will apears...
if you tick source and compressed, they broke and apprears (for me) 1/4 black and black line appears.
So... for "smalls" world CK should suffice in heigtmap LOD generation.

Be carefull since Ck will flatten your heightmap after diffuse generation, don't save, re-open CK generate Normals, close CK without saving.

[Lyd]

MERP's most experienced region generator guy says it works perfectly fine, it's just hard to learn at first.

Hey, MaegFaer can you give me quick instructions on using nConvert? I'm getting the pink land textures, which I believe was because of mipmaps or normals or whatever, and you said to generate PNG with Oscape, then convert them to dds using nConvert. I have my Oscape generated PNG files but I just cannot make heads or tails of the instructions for nConvert... Do I do another batch file like with TESAnnwyn? What exactly do I type to make it convert everything within a certain folder (the 'TEX-1024' folder Oscape made) from PNG to DDS? Thanks again!

[Suzy Santana]

Yes, make another batch file and give it the command:

nconvert DDS *.PNG

At least I think that was it, I deleted my batch file.

[Floor Punch]

Yes, make another batch file and give it the command:

nconvert DDS *.PNG

At least I think that was it, I deleted my batch file.

That converted all the PNG images to... PNG's. It essentially duplicated them all. O.O

EDIT: Also at the very start is says 'Error cannot open dds file'.

I would also like to add that Oscape is reading the worldspace from my esp so it does not need to be an ESM anymore.

[Ridhwan Hemsome]

DDSopt converts PNGs, but it also creates 1x1 maps if it's without texture/pattern.

I just want to mention something, without the intention to offend anyone. Say there is a problem with flattened textures (1x1), there is none with normal textures containing something. So please please please please don't make this nConvert or DDSopt part of your workflow. Just texture the terrain and done. No 1x1 textures occur.
I also hope that if 1x1 isn't working, that then it's recognized as a bug and fixed in the next CK. And if not I will stop Oscape to flatten.

Besides, the DDSs need to be swizzled (XZY), but the PNGs aren't. That swizzling will happen on-the-fly while transcoding in Oscape.

[Pat RiMsey]

I just want to mention something, without the intention to offend anyone. Say there is a problem with flattened textures (1x1), there is none with normal textures containing something. So please please please please don't make this nConvert or DDSopt part of your workflow. Just texture the terrain and done. No 1x1 textures occur.
I also hope that if 1x1 isn't working, that then it's recognized as a bug and fixed in the next CK.

Wait, so you're saying this shouldn't occur if we actually apply a texture to the ground?

[A Boy called Marilyn]

I for one want to thank you guys for all the time you've put toward this problem. Since the ck was announced, making worldspaces was what I was looking forward to the most.

[Blackdrak]

I don't know if you meant real textures would work or not, but they don't... I randomly textures a large chunk of my map (roughly a 5x5 cell area) and NONE of it looks normal, it's all still crazy and pink....

I also need that command line for nConvert to try the other way, so, I'm kind of stuck on LOD for now.... To the region editor! Which still confuses the hell out of me...

[Amanda Furtado]

Wait, so you're saying this shouldn't occur if we actually apply a texture to the ground?

That has been confirmed, yes. The problem appears to occur when Oscape produces 1x1 textures.

Anyway, as I don't know what you're doing, don't know where the error occurs (in Skyrim or the CK), and I am using 1x1 final textures in Skyrim without problems, I really have to say I'm totally lost myself. All I know is: there should be no error.
I could think that if the problem is in the CK, and the CK paints directly onto textures - I always though the CS paints into the ESP/ESM instead ... - it'll not work, of course. So make me a video or something so I can understand this. I have very few time, I'll have an important meeting next week, basically am in crunch time, so I can't sit down learning the CK. Which also seems a bit buggy ...