More like someone shoots the leader of your country at a theatre. No one there stops him as he runs off. That's ok, none of them are trained for that. If the doors were guarded and a law enforcement officer let the person leave KNOWING their crime, then that's treason. If people knowingly help that killer hide, that's treason. It is actually uncommon for treason to not be punishable by death.

I'm not fan of the death penalty, mind you (and in fact I am strongly against it), but in the TES universe that's going to be something that's not all that unusual for criminals. It's a brutal medieval world. So it doesn't seem that strange for him to get killed to me.

Yeah, there are people who make their 8 year daughters handle poisonous snakes, out of "tradition". And when the daughter get bit and dies, they defend the "tradition" and think you have no right meddling. But it's a weak defense. Someone has to account for deaths like that. Just like someone would have to account for their country's leader getting stomped on, and they letting the killer out of the gates. Saying "I'm innocent. It's our tradition!" would be the true mark of a [censored].

This is the story I see.

1. Ulfric rode into the Blue Palace. No one stopped him since he is the Jarl of Windhelm.

2. He challenged the High King to duel.

3. Torygg accepted. Entire court stands down as per the High King's command.

4. Ulfric shouted and knocked Torygg down, but that did not kill him.

5. Ulfric followed up with a sword thrust to Torygg's heart.

6. Entire court was stunned. And did not make any attempt to stop Ulfric because that was the High King's command before the duel.

7. Ulfric rode out of the city gates.

8. Roggvir was not told to stop him, or he was already out by the time word reached him. Remember, they don't have cell phones, if a messager could get word to Roggvir to close the gate, they could have blocked Ulfric's path in the first place. Ulfric isn't exactly a 81 level dragonborn.

9. Afterwards, realizing that Ulfric would become High King if they acknowledged the duel. They backtracked and make it seem sound like Ulfric won the battle using underhanded means TO VOID THE DUEL.

10. Roggvir was made a scapegoat, a mere gatesmen, not the house carl, captain of guards, thranes, advisor, mage nor any of the 3-4 other higher paid palace guards.

Everyone deserves execution.

Did you know that if you shoot Roggvir's decapitated head after he is executed, they consider you to be a murderer?

I sure didn't

Frankly, I find death to be a prefrable punishment to long-term imprisonment, even in our world. I'm probobly in the minority in that view, but have you SEEN the prisons in Skyrim? You would be ill and probobly starved and forgotten about within a short time. If you were eventually let out, you would probobly be homeless. I don't like how cheap life is in TES, which is good because it makes my heroic characters just that, but there are times death is a kinder option.

Roggvir himself indicates that he knew Ulfric had killed the High King. Otherwise he would have defended himself by saying there was no way he could have known that. And a guard shouldn't have to be told to stop someone that just killed another person, even if the person isn't the leader of the city. The guy pretty much blatantly failed at his job and committed treason. (Perhaps this doesn't make sense if we nitpick it, but it clearly seems to be the intention of the Devs that he knew Ulfric killed Torygg).

Again, just because something is an ANCIENT tradition, doesn't mean it is remotely legal or has no legal reprecussions. "Ancient" just means old, and in this case it also means "essentially not practiced anymore." "Tradition" is just something people have done or used to do, it certainly doesn't mean "law."

Agreed. What I find funny is they still haven't found a replacement for him. The gates always unlocked

absoloutly not - im tired of the old argument about ulfric but the player cant prove either way what really happended at that duel, however i suspect that ulfirc just legitmatley duelled and just because he won everybody got all arsey about it- its odd because the nords rave about dragonborns and shouting so why do they hate ulfric :L

anyway, i dont think it was fair, all he did was let an innocent man escape an unfair death- and sadly he had to pay the bloodprice for it

last thing to note- reading through these posts people have to be carefull not to jump to topics like punishment-by-death and nuclear.hydrogen and chemical weapons.

dont get me wrong im against the idea of the weapons, but some people....for some things deserve death.

all of us have our own views and must respect others

Basically this. Roggvir was innocent and if I could have saved him, I would have. Torygg could have refused the duel and stepped down...but he didn't and he died. There was no murder and the only people I would suggest for execution would be the incompetent Jarls that support the Empire. (Siddgeir and Elisif, for example)

Ancient custom does not a law make.

Further, you seem confused on the actual lore. Not fighting him wouldn't have meant stepping down. It would have meant losing a lot of face (including self-respect, since it seems Torygg also had his ego in a bind like many Nords), and perhaps a moot where it would be considered whether he should be High King. Of course, one can't emphasize the loss of face enough in a culture like the Nords, where that is a big, big, big deal. None of this makes such a duel LEGAL, however, anymore than people with certain religious views withholding life-saving medication from their children is legal in most modern countries. Say it together: Tradition does not equal law.

Given that the Empire seems based on the Roman Empire, it seems very likely that they have the laws written down. It also seems quite likely, based on how the two most reasonable Jarls (Balgruuf and Ravencrown) that such "traditions" aren't really in practice anymore -- which is not to say that if someone brings them up there might not be great social consequences if they are ignored. All in all, I think the factors at work in the challenge are somewhat complicated, but I don't think the legality of it has much room for debate.

Did he deserve it? No.

Did it have to happen? Yes. The Empire must pull out all the stops in their war on terrorism if they want to keep the people in line. They're at risk in Skyrim and they know it, and cornered governments do all sorts of stupid things.

With Ulfric and the Jarls that support him, do you really think that Torygg would have been allowed to remain High King? That's what I meant when I said he'd have to step down if he refused the duel. Torygg would not have survived the Moot.

The Empire shouldn't set Skyrim's laws, the High King should. He accepted the duel and faced the consequences. But even if it was not legal, Roggvir didn't need to be executed. The court wizard, the guards that were there in the court, and pretty much everyone else along the way from Blue Palace to the gate that Roggvir opened could have stopped him...but they didn't. They are as guilty as Roggvir would have been, if the duel was truly illegal.

And from the perspective of an Empire struggling to regain control they made an example of the one man they had that they could make an example of. Please note, even if you made the trip to Solitude IMMEDIATELY and didn't go to Bleak Falls Barrow or Whiterun first... Roggvir is put to death after the Empire fails to behead Ulfric in Helgen away from the public eye.

They're desperate. The Aldmeri Dominion isn't guiding this decision, either... their own memo's on the subject suggest that they don't want an end to the conflict in Skyrim. This is purely the Empire grasping for control over Skyrim using the methods they've learned from being occupied by the Aldmeri for years.

You didn't ask me if I thought it was right... you just asked about Roggvir. Sadly I still think "they" had to kill him if they wanted to maintain the sort of control they've been attempting... they being the Empire.

Eh, Ulfric did what he did to get more support for his side. Even with the support he has, he doesn't have a majority of the Jarls with him. With less support, he'd have an even smaller minority. I don't think it is likely Torygg would have lost the moot -- and to be clear, it is his position that might not have survived, not his life (hopefully I'm being pedantic by stating this). He would, however, have lost a lot of face and lost self-respect due to how the Nords define honor, which is why he didn't say "no", and in fact it is why psychologically it would be extremely difficult for a Nord to say "no" to such a duel.


Skyrim is part of the Empire, and in fact Talos founded the third Empire. You seem to be ignoring that and acting like Skyrim is some sort of independent country. It's like saying a district/county/state in a modern country should ignore the laws of their home nation.

As for not stopping Ulfric earlier, that gets into the complicated cultural and other issues that make it all very interesting. Part of it is because the High King said to allow the duel, part of it is likely the shock of him getting killed so quickly and the shock of a duel actually happening, part of it is likely some confusion given the tradition, and part of it is because it seems Ulfric got out of there real quick. It seems by the time things got to Rogvir, that confusion and shock was over, as the game makes it pretty clear it was understood that his legal duty was to stop Ulfric. Rogvir knew that was the written law, but decided tradition overruled it -- that's his defense for himself, anyhow.

If you allow that a tradition is not a law, as you should, then that makes what Rogvir did treason. Which most countries today and even historically have always punished with death. So I don't see how any other punishment would make sense.

My understanding is that they've only just concluded his trial, and it seems like they devoted quite a bit of time into doing the trial.

As for the timing beyond that, I wouldn't read so much into that. It's a game and it is clearly for the player's benefit.

Of course Torygg would have been allowed to live. But as *High King* Torygg, he wouldn't have survived. He'd just be a deposed monarch.

The Empire can set Skyrim's laws, because it can set laws for the entire Empire, but if the High King says something is okay...it should be okay. Then again, I'm fighting for an independent Skyrim.

But here's what I'm getting from the conversation: Torygg accepts duel (regardless of legality), accepts and loses, the Court is tripping balls because of what just happened, Roggvir opens the gate and Ulfric escapes. Roggvir just happens to be a powerless guard (compared to the Court) and ends up being punished for his opening the gate and for their inability to stop Ulfric (because of either shock or the order Torygg gave out).

Roggvir deserved life imprisonment, but execution was a strech. It's unfortunate that Roggvir was executed...but there's nothing that can change that now... until I find his corpse and revive him with necromancy.

This ^

When you talk to the court wizard, she tells you that she was there, but it was too late. Ulfric issued the challenge, Torygg accepted and the next minute he was dead. So, why didn't she shoot a fireball at Ulfric's retreating butt (a r s e is censored? It's NORD speech! LOL)? And yes, why didn't Aldis, the Captain of the Guard, try to stop him from leaving the city?

Roggvir is just a scapegoat, who has to pay the price for the incompetence of others. Plus, I'm sure they did that to pacify the dam Aldmeri, who probably sent a courier to find out what's going on in Solitude!

Given Ulfric was fleeing, it's possible she WAS shooting fireballs at him!

Argumentum ad antiquitatem.

The same one Torygg would have used. But oh what am I saying, the empire never would've dreamed of prosecuting their beloved puppet for murder.

No he got screwed badly.

only the imperials view it as a true murder, real nords know it was honerable combat that occured.

the thalmor+imperials forced the widow of solitude to let the execution occur.

It's funny when you first walk into that. I didn't know if I was supposed to interfere or not.

I wish you could. It doesn't matter what you do, you can console kill everyone responsible for the execution and Roggvir will just drop dead of his own accord.