It very clearly says a Stormcloak victory is to be avoided, too.

As long as Skyrim is part of the Empire, "fighting the Thalmor in country" would be a violation of the Empire's treaty with the Dominion. If the Empire looked the other way and did nothing, they would soon find themselves at war with the Thalmor themselves. In order to keep the peace with the Dominion until they are ready to do otherwise, they would have no choice but to do exactly what they are already doing - declare Ulfric and his followers to be rebels and criminals and go in and put down their rebellion.

In which case Ulfric is in exactly the same position, having to fight the Empire first in order to get them out of the way so Skyrim can rid itself of the Thalmor who are there with the Empire's support and protection. Skyrim *must* secede from the Empire, either by mutual agreement or by force of arms, before anything can be done about fighting the Thalmor. Ideally it would've been an effort initiated and led by the High King/Queen of the province, and removing Torygg from that position was a necessary means to that end. The reaction of Solitude and the Empire to the outcome of the challenge pretty much guaranteed that it would be force of arms that decided the issue, but it would have been no different had Ulfric just decided to send troops out to hunt and kill Thalmor. The Empire would have been forced to call it a rebellion and send the Legion to put it down. The only difference would be that Ulfric wouldn't also have a claim to the throne which some Nords, at least, consider legitimate and which ultimately may give him the right to act on behalf of Skyrim as a whole in the way that only the High King/Queen can do.

I side with the Stormcloaks in hopes of a continuation DLC where I can try to make reforms in every city of Skyrim to improve a feeling of safety and equality. I'd also like to see Ulfric feel regret about some of his actions. I know I do, and what he did to Torygg was unnecessary. Everyone knew Ulfric could use the voice and could probably kill the high king if he wanted, doesn't mean he had to. I still feel bad for

Empire all the way

Empire without it the dominion wins.

I fight for the Empire. Ulfric and his short sighted ambition, if left unchecked, would further weaken the most powerful governmental institution that has the best chance to oppose the Aldmeri Dominion. Ulfirc's rebellion would drag on and on with no hope of winning, unless The Dovahkiin steps in, which is what the Thalmor wish for. The empire should be quietly gaining as much insider information now they are so close to the Thalmor, then quietly re-unify in readiness for another war. As it is, Ulfric is in the way of the Empire being able to take on the Aldmeri Dominion.

Ideally, I would have liked to have seen a little deal between Ulfric and the Empire where a false stalemate was put in place to cover an agreement for Ulfric and Skyrim to come in on the Empire's side once the war with the Thalmor is out in the open. it would have been a nice 'third' choice if the Dovahkiin could have brokered a secret agreement between Ulfric and the Empire to make it appear the Civil War was still going when really Skyrim had agreed to support the Empire in the next war. With the illusion the Civil War was continuing, Talos worship could also continue, which is another way to fight the Thalmor.

1. Ulfric abused the voice. I am with the Greybeards 100%. Only the Dohvakiin can use the Voice as he/she sees fit. The rest should use it mainly for worshiping or only in times of dire need.

2. Most commoners do not want another war. They simply want to get on with their lives after a painfully long war. In any war, the peasants are always those who suffer. Ulfric started it for his pathetic reasons, he must die.

3. The Nords are not natives of Skyrim. They rob Skyrim from the natives, so the stupid Stormcloaks cant go about shouting Skyrim is for the Nords. These hypocrites must die.

4. Any thing that weakens the Empire will make the Thalmor happy and anything that makes the Thalmor happy is bad.

I'm really tired of reading that the Empire is the only hope for defeating a broken and crippled Aldmeri Dominion (The Elves lost just as many men as the Empire did and the Elves reproduce far more slowly than Humans). The Empire has lost Morrowind, Skyrim, and Hammerfell. It has long lost Valenwood and Elsweyr. That leaves... what, Highrock and Cyrodiil?

Some great champion of Humankind that is.

Nevermind that there's no way that Bethesda would include the Stormcloaks as an option just to force you to join the Empire at the resolution of the conflict in the future DLC.

i'd go for the stormcloaks. i like the idea of defending your religion. the empire disallowed worship of talos. well the thalmor did but the stormcloaks want this worship back.

It is obvious after reading the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric that the Thalmor would prefer the Skyrim Civil War to continue. This way both sides with weaken and be easily picked of by the Thalmor. A quick and decisive end to the SCW that is available to the player on by sides of the conflict is exactly what the Thalmor does not want regardless of which side is chosen. Ulfric and Tullius both after finishing their respective sides of the war immediately inform the player of a future conflict, possibly war, with the Thalmor.

I always and have to choose the Imperial side of the Skyrim conflict. The Empire is known for racial acceptance and cultural tolerance significantly more then the Stormcloaks. Skyrim alone seems to have little chance against the Thalmor but a Skyrim-Cyrodiil force seems much more reasonable. Tullius even has a Nord Legate, Rikke, occapany him in order to understand and relate to the nordic peoples more appropriatly. After the imperial questline onclusion Tullius is more understanding of Nord Culture although he would never see it replacing his own.

Short-Version: Empire will have revenge on the Thalmor.

In order for Skyrim to be free of the Thalmor, it has to be free to ignore the WGC. That means it has to secede from the Empire, as Hammerfell did. It's impossible to do that by peaceful means (mutual agreement) when the ruler of Skyrim isn't on board with the idea, since he/she is the only person with the authority to treat with the Empire on behalf of Skyrim as a whole. Torygg wasn't doing that, nor was he going to lead a rebellion and try to win independence by force of arms. So, yes, in order for the secessionists to meet their goal of being free from the terms of the WGC and thus free to deal with the Thalmor on their own terms, Torygg had to go and the only way for that to happen was to challenge his right to rule.

And no, Ulfric didn't have to kill him, Torygg could've simply refused the challenge to fight which most would see as an admission that he is not fit to occupy the throne. He abdicates his position, a moot is called, someone else gets to run the show.

But Torygg did not refuse the challenge, he chose to fight, and once he made that choice, then yes - Ulfric either had to kill him or be killed himself.

I pick keeping the jagged crown and never finishing the war

I choose neither as a necromancer im always looking for new minions and when I happen to come across a group of them I add them to the collection

Jurgen Windcaller's conclusion that the Nords lost the Battle of Red Mountain because the gods were punishing them seems pretty.... suspicious. It sounds to me like he couldn't accept that they just got their tails handed to them by a bunch of Chimer they had easily beaten before. It's fine if you want to rp a monk, but even the panels on the 7000 steps reveal that Kynareth gave Men the thu'um in order to defeat their enemies. There's nothing there about only dragonborn being allowed to use it- that's a made-up rule. Although even Ulfric says he doesn't think the thu'um should be used lightly.

People never want a war- but "commoners" are also being dragged out of their homes and not only is the empire not doing anything about it, they're enabling it.

LOL And this is your justification for siding with the empire who thinks it has a right to rule over the natives of the entire continent?

Empire. Ulfric has some good arguments, but he clearly can't see the big picture. It's not like the Empire just woke up one day and decided to remove Talos' status as a God. It's also not like the WGC is going to be in place forever. They're just buying time, as soon as the war starts up again, you can bet that the worship of Talos will be allowed.

All Ulfric and his lot need to do, is wait a little bit. Of course, being as arrogant and racist as they are, that's not going to happen.

There are good reasons to join both sides and which is "better" depend on prespective. Personally I am slightly more in favor of the Empire, but not enough to take a final stand with them. If more information is added in the coming DLCs about the CW and its aftermath I will easily change to the Stormcloaks if they seem to be the better side.

Argonia...

Do you mean Blackmarsh?

No I'm pretty sure he means http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-third-edition-war-trees-argonia-and-black-marsh

Me. I've been looking for the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tribunal:Easter_Eggs with very little success. Some are even hostile about it.

I thought most of Argonia is now beneath the sea?

I can see why Ulfric wants change, however I feel that shouting the emperor down then stabbing him really isn't justified as "fair combat".

The only drawback to me about siding with the Stormcloaks is what you mention in your spoiler. If I didn't have to do that, I'd be with them 100 %. As it is, I'm with them maybe 80 %. I just hate doing that to people I've gotten to know so well.

I've used the same excuse. I'm surprised it actually works.

Not an issue for the argonians

The WGC was signed 26 years ago. The Thalmor have been enforcing it in Skyrim for 25 of those 26 years. I'd say the've waited more than a "little bit" already.



Except that never happened. If the Emperor is dead, it wasn't Ulfric who killed him.