I see what you're saying now. You're just saying they felt more "Natural", like a cave, instead of a "Level" that you'd find in a more traditional game. That I can't argue, though I will point out that in many cases, Morrowind does follow a similar design as Skyrim. There are actually "Bosses", as in a high-level enemy slot within a "Final Room" in the dungeon. It's just that the rest of the dungeon can populate the same.

I was simply speaking from an aesthetic design point, I don't expect you to have read any of my other posts, but I point out all the time that I would have liked all (particularly Human-occupied) dungeons to be hand-made to the finest detail. Contextual storytelling as it were.

And be honest, that wasn't a "Random Selection" of dungeons, because you obviously had to check to see which ones were appropriate for your argument.

I guess a relatively eloquent way of putting it would be, Level design in Skyrim has an odd way of reminding you that it's a game.

Exploration is its own reward. It's not about unique items or xp for stumbling across an area.

I love exploring in FO3 and Skyrim. I suffer from the same problem in both games: I head off to fulfill a mission and realize an hour later that I'm nowhere near the target. I get distracted by finding things or encounters.

Most of the areas I explored in both games I've stumbled upon. Sometime later I may find that they are associated with a quest.

X27: it sounds like you'd have more fun with Excel than sandbox style RPGs. Your slavish devotion to order and checkboxes doesn't lend itself well to open world adventuring.

Nothing beats entering a dark cave with no idea what, if anything, resides within.

While we're at it here are some Oblivion stuff:

http://images.uesp.net/4/43/OB-Map-Anga.jpg

http://images.uesp.net/0/06/OB-Map-AmelionFamilyTomb.jpg

http://images.uesp.net/9/9d/OB-Map-BloodmayneCave.jpg

http://images.uesp.net/e/e0/OB-Map-Bravil_Wizard

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While yes I do have order and checkbox issues I prefer open world because I like to go wherver I want and feel like I'm in a big open world. Dragon Age Origins wasn't open enough for me.

I suppose in public, I'm on the spectrum. So me being literal and me needing order is nothing new to me at all.

I think fallout seemed more adventurous because you had low supplies for healing and the like. I agree though skyrim is not very fun to explorer maybe because there never really felt like any risk was involved.

All of those pale to Black reach which is there size put together and more...

But I found time and time again getting lost in Oblivion.

Skyrim somehow I can find myself finding the exit and the entrance really easil.

Oblivion even some dungeons I have done with multiple run throughs I still get lost. Skyrim I somehow remember them all quite easily.

Sort of true, but I think most of those boss locations made sense from an environmental standpoint. The center of a shrine is where you'd find most "boss" characters in Morrowind, but it's also where the worshipping takes place in a shrine. You could also stumble across bosses in the middle and beginning of dungeons (Dagoths would be scattered pretty liberally throughout a dungeon, for example). Skyrim doesn't always seem to have that logic to it's design. Bosses are inevitably in the last room of the dungeon. A final room which then ends up being almost immediately next to the entrance door.
Hand made I can agree on. Contextual story telling can be good, too, but I don't necessarily want it in every dungeon. It comes to a point in Skyrim where, before I even enter a dungeon, I'm already wondering what journal entries I might come across detailing the untimely demise of it's previous residents. Same thing in the wild. I feel like I've stumbled across half a dozen lovers who ran away together only to be promptly mauled by a sabertooth. I'd like a greater variety to these contextual stories, and I'd also like a greater number of "friendly" dungeons.
It was. I jumped over to UESP, selected Morrowind-Locations and randomly opened a bunch in new tabs. I did try to avoid clicking too many ancestral tombs because I wanted a sampling across all dungeon types, but that's about it. You'll notice a number of those pictured are incredibly simple dungeons. I'm not trying to exaggerate the complexity of Morrowind dungeons, simply showcase the variety.

Let's get Skyrim in on this action too!

Fort Greenwall, Nuchuand-Zel, Blackreach, and Ragnvald!



Does nobody understand what contextual storytelling means? If you're using "Words", it's not being told in context, you're being force-fed.

Example of Contextual Storytelling: Halted-stream Mine.

Example of Not Contextual Storytelling: Frostfloe Lighthouse/Frostfloe Abyss.

yes, the 'quests' if you can call them that, like, bounties and bedlam, etc. are weak, boring and a waste.

i wonder what happens if you ONLY explore ALL the dungeons first in the game and then do bounties and guild quests later?

this "invisible wall" hatred always makes me laugh. as if you should actually be able to get to any spot on the map that you want, lol.

in new vegas, you CAN go the hard route and many of us did. what you're really complaining about is not being able to climb.

the subway tunnels and their maze-like qualities were absolutely awesome in fallout3. one of skyrim's problems is that you can't get lost. you never feel like you have to use the map, except, due to poor or nonexistent directions.

I'm not sure how a journal entry runs contrary to this. If there's a journal entry discussing an eminent bandit attack on a farm, but everything is neat and tidy and there are no bodies or survivors, then that's poor design. It shouldn't follow, however, that the mere presence of written evidence precludes "contextual story telling". I've not been to halted stream mine, UESP makes it sound like a poachers camp with traps set up to kill animals. If you discovered a ledger keeping track of the kills and buyers, would that do anything to lessen the narrative?

Heavily disagreed. I love traveling around in ES games because to me all of the locations are interesting. Most of the places in Fallout 3 were definitely good but to me pretty much every location is worth the time looking around.

See, again, you just don't understand.

Frostfloe Lightouse is a great example here of "Trying to be contextual storytelling, but failing."

The entire story of what happened at Frostfloe, can be told just through the context of the situation. The Chaurs Corpse, the dead people with falmer weapons in them, the broken wall in the cellar. All this says, very plainly that FALMER BROKE INTO THE HOUSE AND KILLED EVERYONE LOLZ.

Instead of ending on an otherwise good note, Skyrim comes and says "I think all our players are idiots, let's write in exacting detail exactly what happened here!". Call me strange, but if you walk in on your family being chewed on by a giant bug, I don't think you're going to jot down "MY FAMILY GOT EATEN BY A BUG" in your handy-dandy journal. It's heavy-handed, and incredibly patronizing.

Now take Halted Stream camp. This is a dungeon that has no quest associated with it (outside of bounty target radiant), and is relatively small. Externally, it does seem like a "Poacher camp", you got bandits getting ready to carve a mammoth, lots of Mammoth tusks and meat, some grease slicks from runoff. But Whoever did this, took it one step further. On the table, there is a spellbook (one of only two) called "Transmute mineral ore", next to the book, is a few samples of Silver ore, and the mine is laden with tons of iron ore veins. So here is a story, of a bandit gang who have set themselves up to make virtually unlimited money before you walk in and break some skulls. All this is done without using a journal that says "WE FOUND LOTS OF IRON AND I GOT TRANSMUTE ORE NOW WE MAKE MUNNIES LOL!".

It's all told in context. If these same elements were found randomly elsewhere, they would be out of context, hence there would be no contextual story.

LECTURE OVER

That's pretty much how it is for me, too.

And is one of the big reasons FO:NV wasn't as fun for me. Yeah, the dialogue & quest structure was better. But the just random wandering exploring was lousy.

there are many dungeons with no real quests. you may get sent there by a creation engine quest, but that doesn't count. I love randomly going around and visiting new dungeons. I'm always surprised by how i never knew about were completly original, and even had mini quests. Not to mention that they are truly "hand crafted". each one is unique, and lovely!

I would agree, but would like to point out that the DLC's (IMO) were better at this than in the vanilla map. I got more satisfaction from just wandering in those DLC's than I did evewrywhere else in the Mojave...but it still couldn't compare to FO3 or even Skyrim's exploration (that's the one thing about this game I can't criticize too much)

Well that's pretty dissapointing for a series that prides itself on open world exploration. The problem i think is that it's just randomised crap in every chest. You know that at the end of this dungeon there's going to be a chest with 33 gold, a silver ring and an iron longsword or something.

Certain places (like at the end of a big dungeon) should have hand placed items for no matter what level you are. So you may find a Deadric Bow at level 1 if you get through the cave.

For such a massive sandbox game, Skyrim really does feel oddly guided. Every Sarah, Jane and Mary has a quest for you and the 'scenarios' you come across - strategically placed piles of bloodied bones, all those bloody journals - tend to leave little to the imagination. Even with my dedication to quest-completion I've got fifteen-odd 'main' quests stacked up alongside Mara knows how many side ones. In Fallout 3, on the other hand, I rarely had more than six objectives and nary a one of them was something so mundane as a fetch quest. Fallout told its story through the landscape, through the attitudes of NPCs who provided flavour to the game instead of merely acting as the stilted dispensers of wild goose chases. The best part was that I never felt overpowered. Facing down a gang of raiders with a rapidly dwindling stock of ammo, a half-broken gun and a solid conk to the head that had my vision swimming every few seconds, I was scared. In Skyrim, I yawn while taking down a dragon. Fallout simply felt more realistic, giving you the distinct impression that the wasteland didn't give a rat's tush about you and that you'd better grow some Fallopian tubes quick or else prepare to become ghoul chow. Skyrim, on the other hand, pampers you - the legendary, the lauded, the unstoppable DRAGONBORN~ - to death. If you like exploring a world blatantly built to accommodate you, Skyrim's perfect. No doubt about that. If, on the other hand, you want to experience a nitty-gritty, rough and tumble struggle for survival, Fallout's your game. I guess it all comes down to personal taste.

I just fought a hard Deadric Prince, what do I get as my reward? An Iron Sword. lol.

Cause Agatha's Song wasn't a Fetch quest?

But whatever.

Wasteland Survival Guide represents probably Bethesda's best quest ever. Multistage, multilayered, extremely varied and a great device as sort of a "World Tutorial".


Again, this is the problem out-of-context items cause. Dremora probably should have been using special "Dremora Bound" Weapons that last a lot longer than the standard ones. But what do I know, maybe Mehrunes Dagon placed an order at Warmaidens.

Which means that the journals were handled poorly, not that the existence of written evidence means it's not contextual story telling. You're arguing against poor contextual story telling, and I'm not really going to disagree with you. For example, some journal entries in the lighthouse describe odd noises and items missing from the cellar. If the journals had ended here, I don't really see any reason to complain. The issue is that the journal entries then become too specific. The circumstances of the former inhabitants' demise are spelled out exactly to the player. The issue is not the existence of journal entries, but how explicit they are.

Right. A lot of the journals were too heavy-handed. Journals exist as a "Tool in the toolbox" to quote an overused phrase. It comes down to using the right thing, for the right situation. The example you gave "Ledger of kills" made by the poachers is a good one. It's believable, and makes sense. But a journal entry written by a man going insane, stating that he is going insane... I just don't buy that. (Ruins right next to Ivarstead)

Fallout is way deeper than Skyrim is. I admit that Skyrim is kinda deep through its books, but almost if not every location in Fallout 3 has a history and signification.

The games are different as i've said before; the scenario and the game play itself making "exploration" more challenging in Fallout than in Skyrim.

And weapons/armor degradation and a more balanced economy perhaps would have helped too in that way in last Bethesda game.

However,in Skyrim the real strength is the game world/design,and sometimes this makes exploration very enjoyable.

And the dungeons - if you deal with the puzzle simplicity and a certain linearity sometimes - are very good in my opinion,especially Dwemer ruins and other places -someone already mentioned here -very evocative or with an almost decent/enjoyable background story related.

Someone on this thread said he had done over 500 hours on Skyrim and called it "bland". LOL.

Fallout 3's dungeons usually had a bit of a story and were generally unique, as well as sometimes containing unique rewards. Made them better than Nord Barrow #146 that's for sure. Sick and tired of killing stupid Draugr.

That said, exploring itself was more boring. Mostly because there was little variation in visual design. Everything was green and brown and bray. Even people. DC was also an absolute chore. I can't believe people whine about invisible walls in New Vegas while FO3 has all those impassable 2 meter high debris that forced me into yet another boring trek in the same old subway tunnels. The game was also so easy that there was little tension or challenge. NV did that aspect better; you're ambushed, by Deathclaws, Cazadores, or faction hit squads, you're usually dead on max difficulty. In FO3? Laugh, activate VATS, [censored]-slap that deathclaw while you are magically invincible, then instantly head-shot it.