Really? i thought i slaughtered all the battle borns except the old ones?... weird.

I don't hate Vignar, but I certainly prefer Balgruuf, if I had any voice in the moot, I'd vote for him over Elsif.

And I think people put too much weight on Maven being the new Jarl of Riften. She was already running the city before you showed up and probably still would have even if they'd put somebody else on the throne.

Meaning you just choose to ignore what he says. He's talking about people having families and wants to give them time to come around. Unlike Mede who has lost his will to fight, and Balgruuf who just wants to put off the inevitable, Ulfric acts. Those fed up with the empire have waited 30 years for it to come around.

Nobody mentioned the Silver Blood family becoming Jarls in Markath with the Stormlcoaks ini charge. That's really bad considering they helped Uflric's ethnic cleansing of non-nords back when he won the town from the Forsworn 20 years before the events of the game. This incident alone makes me think that, in most respect, he's not better than those Thalmor aligned elves that believes in racial superiority.

He really isn't. The Nords banned Forsworn from practicing their religion (sound familiar?), falsely imprisoned people (again, sound familiar?), and tortured/killed innocent people to prove a point, gain power, or just for the hell of it (you can't tell me by this point you don't see the parallels). The Nords are always shouting "Skyrim for the Nords! Hail the Nords!" and have no problem segregating other races to the slums. They are exactly like the Thalmor. Xenophobic, meatheaded, arrogant, overly prideful, and hostile to people who aren't "their kind". The Imperials are hardly better but I just can't stand the psychotic ramblings of the Nords who go on about freedom and justice when they don't know either.


Picking a side in the civil war is even worse than picking sides in the Daedric quests. At least the Daedric princes and princesses admit and are aware how evil and malicious they are for the most part.

He hopes Balgruuf will support him. If he doesn't, he has no problem making an example out of him. He doesn't have a problem killing him, but thinks having Balgruuf leave his position to live in disgrace sets a better example. Regarding people coming around, you confuse a politician talking about politics with deep caring for people. When it comes to caring about the actual innocents, he doesn't seem to really care. Nor does he care about the fact his rebellion is why the Thalmor are around abducting and torturing people. The man completely ignores his wrongs and the negative effects of his deeds, because he's so focused on becoming High King. Nor does he care about self-rule for the people of Skyrim, because he really just cares about HIS rule for those people. He's perfectly willing to get rid of popular leaders if they don't support him.

Granted, the Empire certainly does some of the same things. But they aren't selling a line about self-rule.

Given that the Empire is stretched rather thin, it's pretty clear why it has taken decades to recover. It doesn't help when you have people that could be joining the Legion and bolstering the strength of the Empire instead rebelling. That just weakens non-Thalmor causes, which is of course, exactly why the Thalmor are so pleased with Ulfric Stormcloak and his rebellion. They love how he's causes so much misery, mayhem, and how the war will sap the strength of the Empire in and out of Skyrim.

And it seems the Imperials hate it almost as much as the Nords. They're not as open about it because aside from the fact that they're naturally more subtle, Cyrodiil, unlike Skyrim, borders Dominion lands.

The Empire is indeed in rather poor form in Skyrim. I side with them because I favor civilization and the Stormcloak Rebellion definitely isn't on that side with their xenophobia and the like. The Empire doesn't seem like it's down for the count to me, but it has definitely been knocked down and is struggling to stand back up. With that comes some humiliation, unfortunately. People act like Titus Mede was a coward for what he did, but with an extremely centralized power like an Empire, if the Empreror and his line is killed with the capital sacked, that spells chaos for everyone. It would have undoubtedly been unpleasant for the Thalmor (can't get a breather if there's no central person to negotiate), but it would have been horrific chaos for the Empire as well. Well, that's my view of it anyhow....

That said, I really wish there was more depth and choices in the Civil War storyline. It's all pretty shallow in terms of what the player can do. Heck, it isn't that deep in what the NPCs talk about either. You really have to read between the lines and embellish your own thoughts a fair bit, and who knows how accurate those are?

War... war never changes.

You're free to take that interpretation, but it's subjective and thus no more or less valid than anyone who chooses to take his words at face value.

If Balgruuf were truly neutral, he would have spared his people the battle and made truce with Ulfric. He doesn't, and doesn't support him even when he's been beaten, so he and the other imperial jarls are just as responsible for letting the war go on and claiming lives. Not to mention the Thalmor who are dragging people away in the night with the empire's blessing.

There is a SLIGHT difference between the Forsworn, Nords, and regular Bretons.

The Forsworn religion is one of human sacrifice, daedra worship, hagravens, cannibalism, dogs and cats living together, and staypuff marshmellow men.

Slightly different than Talos worship.