So as if murdering the Emperor wasn't enough, I think I lost all my stomach for the fight on the side of the Stormcloak's after the siege of Whiterun. The fact that snide little Grey-Mane turd with the 80's cartoon bad guy voice is Jarl is enfuriating! I hate that old man and want to spread his blood all over the walls of Dragon's Reach.

Then Jarl Barlgruf makes you feel like sh*t after his surrender. Am I supposed to feel so guilty or disgusted with the efforts of the Stormcloaks as I do? Maybe I'm just over tired but somehow I feel like I am doing it wrong, even though the game clearly has two outcomes.

Why wouldn't Balgruuf be pissed? You kind of took over his city by force. I find it hilarious that you feel more guilty about Balgruuf's disappointment and Gray-Mane's promotion than you do about killing every guard in the way of Dragonsreach. I guess you picked the wrong side.

i hate that grey-mane geezer as well, walking around to strangers and giving them his life story.

There's no winning with this quest, since if you side with the Imperials Maven [censored] [censored] Black-Briar gets to be Jarl of Riften.

Didn't see much a problem killing the Emperor. He seemed past his prime and stated he was pretty ready to die, and I even did a favor afterward by killing the guy who set up the contract on him.

As for the storm cloaks/jarl issue, does anyone know if you put Maven in power in Riften during negotiations of the main dragon quest line if she's removed from power in the civil war line?

Titus Mede II doesn't blame you for killing him. In a weird way, I'd like to forward the idea that he was actually commiting suicide by Dark Brotherhood. He's aware everyone in Tamriel hates him with a burning passion and he probably screwed up with the WGC. So he goes willingly to Skyrim, even though he KNOWS the Dark Brotherhood is behind his cousin's death and probably after him as well.

This way, he gets to die with dignity and possibly ask the DB to take down the guy who killed him too.

(After all, isn't offering his life to a DB an equivalent of the Black Sacrament?)

If you side with Stormcloaks, you eventually take back the city but if you side with Imperials, she stays.

While Balgruuf may have been one of the nicer jarls, I think it was time he was removed. For one, it means that one of his brats won't become the jarl when he dies if he is removed from power which in itself is a good thing and the fact that he was bribed into accepting the WGC could mean that any further issues could be removed if he is bribed.

I don't get the Vignar hate. For one thing, he saved Brill, an poor man who was dying from his alcholism, and helped him recover to become a better man. Did you hear Balgruuf personally save an alcoholic from dying without any reward in return? In addition, when Vignar is jarl, he says that he doesn't want to disturb the lives of the citizens and is trying to get more food, water, and guards into the city to keep it safe and repair the damage done. He is one of the nicest jarls I have met in the entire game. I just don't understand why people hate him.

Sweet! Hopefully if I side with the stormcloaks and kick maven out, I can at last do the Thieves Guild quest line again.

In Brill's words, "Vignar thinks everything used to be better". That's the only reason I don't like him. Regressive people are frustrating.

There's absolutely no way to win with the civil war quest line... It's really going to end up bad either way...

So just saying you think the past is better means you hate him? So saying that the time when the Empire wasn't in a civil war, didn't have nazi elves killing innocents, and didn't ban Talos worship shouldn't be thought of is enough reason to hate someone? The first things Vignar does as jarl is restore Talos worship and repair the city. While he said that everything was better in the past (and it's true), does he do anything that implies he wanted to return to the past?

Yes. I thought I said that?

I don't really care about what Vignar wants to do with religion. For all I know, I AM Talos reincarnated, and care more about the real world and I do the work of Talos by restoring my damn empire back. I'm not kidding either. Also, that guy Heimskr is a fraud and not actually my prophet.

Everyone in this thread should read "The Talos Mistake". But anyway, I feel no shame in "supporting" the Stormcloaks.

I find the Arcturian Heresy more illuminating. If anything, Wulfarth was the real zealot for human centricity, while Talos made compromises with Elves (as did Alessia before him). Also, Talos was just a general, with very down to earth ambitions. He changed the course of the empire of his time by "questionable" means. At the very least, he isn't like Jesus, like some players make him out to be. I don't have a clue where that comes from.

I felt the same way, Barlgruf was my friend and I hated seeing that happen to him. I would never side with the Empire, but I'm reconsidering my position with the Stormcloaks. Maybe I can just back out of the whole thing and chop wood for the rest of my days.

If you get tired of chopping wood, just think of whatever gives you the most potential tools to work with. It isn't about what they are, but what they could be. The entire world is crap in it's current state. Now Alduin is back and going to literally end the world entirely. The one thing you learn about the dragonborn is that there's hope in your very presence. Not just with dragons, but with everything. Whether it's the empire, or the thieves guild, or whether you choose to rack up your bunny bodycount or not.

Mainly because he's a jerkoff.

Vignar is an annoying old geezer, but I think that he deserves respect for the fact that (for once) things really were better in the old days. He comes from a time when honor WAS paramount and almost certainly fought in the war like Ulfric and the other important veterans. So, he deserves at least as much respect as any of the other companions. More, probably, because he never became a werewolf.

Smart man.

His neice, if you can get past her "I am woman, hear me roar" tendancies is also a good candidate to replace him. Given she's likely to marry a Battle-Born, the city is in good hands.

Sadly, the Lawgiver heir is just as big a [censored] as the Black-Briars.

Hell, at least under Maven, my Thieves Guild member can order her around once he's guildmaster.

"I have contacts in the Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild, and Empire."
"I *AM* the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild."
"...the Empire?"
"Tell that to Titus Mede II."

Either way you play it, you end up feeling like you're doing it wrong. That's called bad game writing. Good game writing, either way you play it, you feel like you're doing it right. Apparently the writers at Bethesda think people like to be beaten with sticks. They're mean, in the medieval sense of the word, meaning "stingy." The player is allowed to have only a certain amount of power, freedom, or fun.

I feel more or less satisfied siding with the empire, and not beaten with a stick. Rikke is a lot cooler than Galmar, for sure. Also, I like pragmatic thinkers like Tullius. Maven is a downside, but not in a grating way. I wouldn't mind seeing her again. She's one of those people "you love to hate", if you know what I mean. I find the Jarl of Falkreath a bigger downside.

I find it hard to side with the Stormcloaks because of Rikke. It's annoying, during my Imperial playthrough I get bombarded with nice Stormcloaks. During my Stormcloak playthrough, I meet nothing but jerks in the Empire.

Balgruuf is one of the most pathetic jarls in skyrim. After the stormcloaks take over whiterun he crys over the solitude with the rest of the rejects. When you go to the solitude palace he starts calling you names like “What do you want milk drinker?” He goes on about how Ulfric is going to pay with his blood, yet hes not doing a [censored] thing. He just cries and cries like a little baby that he is.

I don't understand all of the hatred that you people have with Vignar. The battle-borns are way more annoying. for an example Idolaf Battle-Born. If you side with gray-mane he starts acting all tough on you, and when you do attack him he cries out "Help im being attacked" right after he threaten to harm you.

I can respect Vignar. You know where he stands.

Balgruuf is a political snake, trying to have his cake and eat it. He professes neutrality in the civil war, but when Ulfric calls on him to show his cards, he gets scared and invites in the imperial troops to protect him and his government. He's an opportunist of the worst sort: one that cloaks his cowardice in morality.

Aye, he died like a boss.

I followed his last request without a blink, even the character in question was a Stormcloak.