Frameskipping Bug Video : Fallout: New Vegas

» Mon May 02, 2011 6:50 pm

VIDEO UPLOADED!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj1cxogzb7Q

Watch as it stutters and jerks just before the door , passed the door and away from the door. It doesn't show the rest clearly but it does this with every walking step throughout the game!. So if i walk to the right skip..skip..skip.skip as the game drops 4frames per sec to sync the engine with the driver. This is NOT a fault with my system persay but a fault between the engine and certain drivers/monitors/graphics cards. My game does NOT freeze or hang when looking around !

The game is doing 60FPS the entire time!

What is Frameskipping ( from tweakforce )

Note: There is another type of stuttering which can occur, often referred to as micro-stuttering, juddering or skipping. It usually appears as tiny skips, like missing frames in a movie. This is not the same as the normal type of stuttering mentioned above, it is not caused by loading new data, it appears to be an actual bug related to graphics synchronization in the Gamebryo engine, possibly made more noticeable by certain graphics drivers.e. To confirm the problem, use the iFPSClamp=60 setting as covered in the Advanced Tweaking section - if that removes the skipping then you are experiencing this issue. However changing iFPSClamp does not properly resolve this problem as it will then ruin your overall game speed at certain times. At the moment the only known solutions you can try are to firstly force enable VSync both in the game as well as in your graphics card's control panel - see the VSync option in the In-Game Settings section for instructions. If changing VSync doesn't work, try using a different version of your graphics driver. If that still doesn't work, there is a fix which some users claim will work as posted here. If none of these things work then you will have to wait for either a patch and/or a new graphics driver version to resolve the issue. It's an issue that's been present in the Gamebryo engine at least since Oblivion so it is not new, and so far there is no real solution.

Yes the stutter remover fixes it however i wanted to show what i go through with every bethesda game ( gamebyro engine ) and also the I'd engine from Doom 3 / Prey which is fixed via com_precisetic "0" but even that has flaws

» Tue May 03, 2011 4:14 am

While my game is smooth, thats kinda how the npc's start skipping when I'm near em the game itself is smooth while looking around but the npc's kinda skip forward when they run instead of running smoothly.

» Tue May 03, 2011 8:16 am

26TH OCTOBER UPDATE ( GET TICK COUNT , THE PROBLEM SOURCE )

Vegas Stutter Remover

If everything is working right then it should create a new sr_New_Vegas_Stutter_Remover.log, which will include a line like "Improved_GetTickCount seems to be working".

4GB exe Memory/Stutter Remover Mod

FNV4GB additionally hooks and replaces the Windows GetTickCount() function that may improve stuttering.

I was doing more research today and googled " Windows GetTickCount() " , this is what is improved or fixed in both the stutter fix mods for oblivion/fallout 3/vegas , which fixes my frameskipping.

but if I understand your code correctly, what bFix64Hertz does is replace GetTickCount with a version that has a 1ms resolution rather than the ~15ms resolution of the stock one? And I'm guessing this works because Oblivion uses its own timer routines (but using GetTickCount to get elapsed time) rather than the Windows ones?

Reply to the above Quote

The windows ones actually come from the HAL rather than windows itself, which might explain why there aren't complaints about this from xbox users... HALs differ a bit between different sorts of computers. Or that's my understanding, all I do is mess with how GetTickCount gets linked in to Oblivion.exe/Fallout/Vegas.

I ran this code (post#5) and the only problem I see is periodic stuttering of movement, maybe due to the way GetTickCount values are used. What specific issues are you seeing?

GetTickCount Wikipedia

GetTickCount works on all Windows platforms that support the Windows API. It measures time in milliseconds (though it does not have millisecond resolution; its value is typically updated every 16ms), and is in many cases precise enough to measure the speed of code execution in algorithms.

Another VERY interesting post quote

Note that this also makes a number of other changes besides the spincounts, including changing Oblivion from running its main game logic timer off of GetTickCount (which increments at 64 Hertz on most computers, creating a nasty interference patterns with most refresh rates, aka microstuttering) to running it off of timeGetTime, wrapping Oblivion in a timeBeginPeriod(1) region, causing it to yield unneeded time with Sleep, and several changes to the way Oblivion game logic timing reacts to framerates and fluctuations in framerates.

I'm tired and sleepy, so excuse any mistakes.

It's not a tick stutter. It's still frame stutter. The thing is that you use GetTickCount() to measure the time in ms since the system got started.

So you call the function, you get a value like 256, then later on you call it again and you get 272. You can use the delta between subsequent calls to measure the time that has elapsed (16 ms) and use this to see which things within the game engine need to be handled. E.g. the renderer might be hardwired to run every 30 ms (giving a theoretical maximum of ~33 frames per second).

GetTickCount()'s granularity has varied over the course of various Windows versions, apparently 5 ms on Windows 95 up to 15-16 on more recent versions. (I am not entirely sure which part of the hardware it uses to pull timing from, it doesn't seem to be either RTC or ACPI, maybe the old 8254 PIT?)

I think the problem lies that if you have a granularity of 16 ms and you use a refresh of 60 Hz for your monitor, the rendering parts of your code will constantly be triggered on wrong timing parts to properly coincide with the refresh of the monitor. Using timeGetTime() will give you, typically, a more precise counter, although the default apparently is 5 ms, but that would coincide better with the 60 Hz refresh of the monitor.

(And for those who are more versed in engine/rendering coding, feel free to point out my mistakes, I am still relatively new to graphics engine programming.)

DOOM 3 / PREY

Apparently Doom 3 has a fixed 60 fps tic check system wherbyes you can not run it at more than 60 fps. Its like a 1 second interval check, apparently to stop online cheating.

The more i looked into it the more cases i have found with people experiencing this "tic stutter bug".

com_fixedtic 1 and com_precisetic 0 are meant to fix the stutter but alas for me they dont.

What do you guys make of that? , a Possible problem with some systems and TIC Rates? , is it called the tic stutter bug?. Why does the GetTickCount cause me so much grief with frameskipping?.

» Mon May 02, 2011 7:59 pm

What I make of it is that you've posted the same thread with multiple topics on several of the internet message forums I frequent other than [censored]'s /b/

You're looking into it way deeply, no idea what a tic rate is or what this has to do with 7-year-old+ Doom 3. They do not share engines as I have already mentioned

From the video posted, there is a noticeable stutter that part is apparent. But neither I or most other readers here are experiencing what you are. Sure others are claiming to agree with you but you have to remember now, going back to Oblivion's days - the 'stutter' referred to the frame dropping that would occur when the world was streaming in. This was significantly reduced in Fallout 3 although it still exists there and in New Vegas, not much to do about it except maybe get a SSD. So when you say "every bethesda softworks game stutters" just about every reading will agree with you and automatically think of the loading thing which is not what you are talking about at all. Your issue looks very similar to an old FO3 stutter issue many users reported while walking sideways or turning in a circle. This could be corrected by turning ifpsclamp to 60 although it messed up certain aspects of the game. AFAIK, this was an nividia-only issue and worked around in the drivers. Nvidia also changed something which exposed stuttering behavior in FO3 that was corrected with the most recent drivers (actually it was fixed in the prior version and not reported in the change log). The game will stutter a bit at first and correct itself, but not in the way you mention. So when people read your posts for a fix, they're most likely not experiencing what you are meaning if you want to legitimately correct it then start looking at other possible causes. If it's not your video card or drivers, what OS are you using? What CPU? How much RAM do you have? Have you even posted a dxdiag report yet?

You say that in your video fraps reports 60fps but how is that even possible? When the engine stuttered due to the above FO3 bug, it was still reported in fraps as a loss in FPS. Only microstuttering wouldn't show up in fraps. I'm not calling you a liar but I'm saying that doesn't sound right.... I mean maybe your in-game FPS is dropping because of that door and the lighting and what's behind the door. Yes I am being rude, I'm sick of all your topics about the same thing here and on nvidia's site and on guru3d and steam's forums. And your bold text and you "update! it's fixed!" and how you say "skip, skip, skip".... It's obnoxious. You're not helping, and don't expect any help from Bethesda when you cross post "Every Bethesda Game Stutters". Enjoy your stuttering, troll

» Mon May 02, 2011 10:07 pm

UPDATE AS OF 24/10/10

FIXED!!!!!!!!!!!!

(((( FRAMESKIP/STUTTER FIX INSTRUCTIONS ))))

1) Install FallOut 3 Vegas
2) Make sure it's patched to the latest steam version ( 1.1.1 )
3) Copy/Unpack the UPDATED "fnv4gb.exe" and the "fnv4gb_helper.dll" (4GB Fallout New Vegas Mod) into your Fallout NV Folder. " FNV4GB additionally hooks and replaces the Windows GetTickCount() function that may improve frameskipping. "
http://www.newvegasnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=35262
4) Run the fn4gb.exe file!

TOTALY SMOOTH GAMEPLAY HARDLY ANY STUTTER/FRAMESKIPPING( Don't use ifpsclamp )

UPDATE - Due to the latest steam vegas patch the DX9 dll file is no longer needed!

Been playing for ages now without a single frameskip , well chuffed!. Amazing that modders can fix what the developers just haven't done

» Tue May 03, 2011 3:44 am

Unwinding, you're wrong and you have nothing to offer, go away...

» Tue May 03, 2011 10:14 am

Unwinding, you're wrong and you have nothing to offer, go away...

Thanks dsoden! , i just put him on ignore. If this helps just one person then i'm happy!

» Tue May 03, 2011 6:41 am

UPDATE!! From Nvidia

I've done all my researching , videos and post it on the nvidia forums and today i got this reply from ManualG

Our QA person was able to reproduce this. Thank you.

If Nvidia fix it this will help out alot of nvidia users!

» Tue May 03, 2011 7:08 am

This is a great post, I'm on an ATI card (using the latest drivers) and I had this problem, it disappeared when I started using the 4gb/stutter fix. It's extremely weird that people aren't posting in this thread though (except unwinding, but he's clearly a troll and has no idea what he's talking about). Did you get any response on this from Bethesda? Shouldn't they be able to easily fix this, or will we continue having to use mods to even be able to play the game? Here's hoping that Bethesda takes notice of this and finally fixes this bug. It's just insane that this has been around since Oblivion since it basically makes the game unplayable.

» Tue May 03, 2011 12:38 am

UPDATE!! From Nvidia

I've done all my researching , videos and post it on the nvidia forums and today i got this reply from ManualG

Quote
Our QA person was able to reproduce this. Thank you.

Hopefully they can fix it now, that would be awesome!

» Tue May 03, 2011 1:17 am

Updated the frameskip/stutter fix instructions POST 5 for improved compability/performance!
Thanks to MaLow171 for the mod updates!

» Mon May 02, 2011 10:07 pm

My Frameskipping Reproduced Please see below , found by sk4ut!

1) Login into quakelive and register ( takes 5secs ) , go to practice section, select any map without bots and start the game.
2) Open game options/settings and " enable console " YES. Return to match
2) Open console by CTRL+~ or just ~
3) Type cvar_restart press enter and then, vid_restart press enter
4) Again, open console, enter com_maxFPS 60 and cg_drawFPS 1
5) Do the same walking movements , walk right , left e.t.c and you will see very similar behaviour. Again, it could be seen the best in front of some objects like teleports, or narrow passages.
6) If you can't see it clearly , go fullscreen via video options!

To those that don't know what frameskipping is , try this out and see for yourself!. This is what i suffer from in fallout 3 / vegas / oblivion / doom 3 and prey!

----------------------

NVIDIA UPDATE

The driver fixes are just for Fallout 3 and Oblivion. We are working with the publisher to provide a fix in their next patch for Fallout 3 New

----------------------

» Tue May 03, 2011 5:12 am

This is a great post, I'm on an ATI card (using the latest drivers) and I had this problem, it disappeared when I started using the 4gb/stutter fix. It's extremely weird that people aren't posting in this thread though (except unwinding, but he's clearly a troll and has no idea what he's talking about). Did you get any response on this from Bethesda? Shouldn't they be able to easily fix this, or will we continue having to use mods to even be able to play the game? Here's hoping that Bethesda takes notice of this and finally fixes this bug. It's just insane that this has been around since Oblivion since it basically makes the game unplayable.

From what i understand it's an inherent issue with the engine itself. So more than likely this issue will always be present for as long as this Engine is in use sadly.

» Mon May 02, 2011 6:56 pm

4GB mod, makes my antivirus upset. Warns of Malware... hmmm...

» Mon May 02, 2011 10:03 pm

4GB mod, makes my antivirus upset. Warns of Malware... hmmm...

False positive, use better antivirus software!

» Tue May 03, 2011 3:36 am

I have recorded a little vid myself, since youtube converts the vid it's not as visible as in the original version. so i'm gonna upload that one too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q_AI5lVnzI

Original Version (5MB)
http://www.fileserve.com/file/2YWMVEu

» Tue May 03, 2011 9:00 am

I have recorded a little vid myself, since youtube converts the vid it's not as visible as in the original version. so i'm gonna upload that one too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q_AI5lVnzI

Original Version (5MB)
http://www.fileserve.com/file/2YWMVEu

exactly what mine looks like

» Tue May 03, 2011 3:18 am

Quote
The driver fixes are just for Fallout 3 and Oblivion. We are working with the publisher to provide a fix in their next patch for Fallout 3 New

i guess these fixes are not included in the new patch, cause i have still the same issue.

» Tue May 03, 2011 12:33 am

even with the new patch it's still there!

» Tue May 03, 2011 6:30 am

Patch didn't say anything about frameskipping performance issues. Just the broken quest bugs. That quote was meant for the last patch that did fix a lot of framerate issues for most people

» Tue May 03, 2011 1:52 am

So does this 4gb fix actually fix the stutter that is happening in Ashtrey's video, not the first video of the door? I have what Ashtrey has and am wondering if this will help. Also, if it will, has anybody figured out if it will still work with the latest patch, 1.0.2.314

» Tue May 03, 2011 9:03 am

I don't know but Skyranger's Stutter remover will fix this stutter just like it did in Oblivion and FO3. You can find New Vegas Stutter remover in the mods section.

» Tue May 03, 2011 8:47 am

yep the stutter remover works, but i would prefer an official fix.

» Tue May 03, 2011 6:47 am

yep the stutter remover works, but i would prefer an official fix.

Wont happen.

Thank the nine Skyrim is on a new engine!

» Tue May 03, 2011 12:27 am

I see a lot of posts about stuttering and it makes me wonder if it's something my eyes can't see (I doubt it since they're pretty particular.. I can see individual interlaced fields on a crt tv) or something specific to certain hardware? The only time the game stutters for me is when it's loading in the background (example, fast travel to north vegas gate and enter gate.. that area by lucky 38 will stutter like mad for a few seconds as the game loads the cells in the background from my HD). Some places have large cells and lots of lighting effects that cause slowdown even on modern systems such as techatticup mine, sewers, and vault 21 due to the way the graphics renderer is optimized (you'll go from 60-30 or less fps in these areas.. techatticup mine is really pretty though).

Despite me not having any stuttering, I thought I'd try that stutter remover just to see what it did. It definitely lowers your average FPS. I know it modifies something called a tick count and has something to do with modern multi-core CPUs and the way they increase and decrease speed but part of me wonders if it really fixes stuttering for those that have it or is it masking it with a lower average framerate? I kept the file around in case I ever use enough mods that need >2GB of RAM (The vanilla game won't use more than 1GB). On a side-note that is slightly related, I saw some mention on a WoW forum about how making the exe largeaddressaware for that game would get you banned but it 'fixed stuttering' and raised fps. That's not possible when you think about it rationally.. If WoW (or any game) was using over 2GB it would just crash.. So making it largeaddressaware would just make it not crash. Sure around that crash point it would start to slow down, but there is no way it's a magical average FPS increase. If using enough mods for NV and high res textures, the game will request more than 2GB of RAM and it will crash without it. But the normal game doesn't use over 1GB. Reminds me of a debate with GTAIV where on the rockstar forum they were arguing about largeaddressaware and the counter argument was it never used more than 1GB of RAM and some people said it also increased their FPS. Funny thing though, it turned out the exe was always largeaddressaware off the disc from rockstar. Placebo does incredible things