I neither support your beliefs nor the provided opposing ones. I believe that certain fads are ruining gaming, not certain companies, or gamers. Breathing for 2 seconds to recover all of your invisible health is a huge, huge problem in the gaming industry, imo. Removing RP aspects for the sake of more, less intelligent customers is as well. I don't point fingers at companies, unless it is to say: Hey, please get off of the bandwagon and stop trying to cash in on the latest BS mechanic. Skyrim, & SE:V2 are the latest violators of "what the masses think they want". The hell with that.

And you're welcome to that opinion. Just respect the opinions of others as well.


The Elder Scrolls Online isn't the issue, it goes far beyond that. Also, thank you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

You don't have to make sure every game succeeds. It's about not complaining, and actually presenting something constructive to discussions.


Health regeneration isn't in every video game, and nor should it be. Fads are just that, they come and go. So you may see of it as an issue now, but the next fad down the line might be more to your liking.

Again, the issue really boils down to respect. Having respect for the individual and the idea is key. The same goes for rational discussion and polite conversation.

This. One is simply naive if they don't see that broader business practices are ruining gaming, not gamers. The OP's premise is absurd. With all due respect.

Health regeneration, fad as it is, finds its way into a more-than-acceptable amount of video games.

As far as respect... what are you talking about? Is this some leak from another thread?

Video games have pretty much always been about business, even back in the "good old days."

And how is it absurd? To an extend you're proving my point. You're complaining. You just called my premise absurd without offering a true alternative. Yes, you have stated that it is your belief that business is ruining gaming, but why is that the case? Why do you believe that is the case?


Again, your opinion which you are of course welcome to.

And no, it's not a bleed over from another thread.

You want my honest opinion? I think it's this attitude where everything is excusable that's ruining gaming.

That's just company PR you're repeating, it's pretty obvious. And even in a situation where all of that was true, you're still being charged for stuff that was already finished and should have been in the game to begin with, or as a free download.

Well yeah, but the circumstances were a lot different back then too.

Meh. As someone who's been playing digital games for three decades, and participating in online conversations since Usenet groups in the 80's.... yeah, the overall attitude/entitlement/rampaging rudeness/etc of the internet "public" has gone far downhill. Hyperbolic over-reaction to minor things, "my interest is better than your interest/your opinion makes you an idiot" tribalism, "demanding" things change, etc..... vastly more negative and unfriendly place nowadays. I honestly don't understand why some devs even bother to have forums and/or try listening to their http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnpleasableFanbase.


edit: http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/mass-effect-3-dlc

Everything isn't excusable. The problem I have is how we go about making that known.


That's the truth thought, the content was partially on the disc because of how the game loads it. But clearly that's not the case, because, as you said, it's company PR.

And I'll bite on the second part. If they hadn't had bits of the content on the actual disc, would you complain because they're charging you for it?



True, but that doesn't change the fact that it was just as much a business then as it is now. The figures have changed, as have the circumstances, true. But it's still a business.


This is brilliant.

And there is no other possible way to make it work? I find that hard to believe, especially since every DLC requires you to have a hard drive anyway.

The only source who can comment on this is the company, except they are under no obligation to be honest.

That would be fine, if it was actual content that was made after the game and offered for a reasonable price, and not content purposely left out of the game and sold the day of release. I'm not against all DLC, Lair of the Shadow Broker was definitely worth the price.

I find the last sentence funny"I honestly don't understand why some devs even bother to have forums and/or try to listening to their unpleaseable fans".The problem is most of the developers don't listen or change a game so much that it barely resembles it predecessor.Are developers that dense they think vastly changing a game that is generally good is what fans want?.Dragon Age 2 springs to mind

It just depends on the coding I imagine. Only a small portion, loading commands and other basic data, are probably the only things included on the actual disc.

I'm not entirely sure though. All I know is that given the size of the download, most of the DLC was not on the disc.


Exactly. And as usual, the worst is assumed.


http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/mass-effect-3-dlc It explains it better than I can. Thanks for the link Kiralyn.

Gamers expect more because devs promise more. They rarely deliver, however.

While that itself is just regarding DLC that is the main reason PC community is growing and why many publishers/developers are moving to PC. So strong chance that video explains partly why a TES MMO is arriving. PC makes more money in the long run. Consoles the publishers/developers make 99% of your profit within the first week of release that's it publisher/developers do not see dime from used games sales which can be argue to have the same effect as piracy of a game. Of course many other reasons encourage PC consumer base sales Valve has proven that %5 discount = x% of sales and grows expeditionary for each % but I am already drifting off topic.

Good video but it only applies to consoles of course when you have games like COD you argue some of the points within that video can be irrelevant publishers/developers could throw PR campaigns for their DLC many believe MW3 is a $60 DLC for MW2 personally I do not disagree but I do not own and my expections of a PC game should consist of is missing in MW3 and MW2 but was very much in COD4 or even COD 1.

That's a matter of interpretation really. There are cases like Fable, where promises don't really match up to what the game actually turns out to be, but more often than not it's a problem of gamers setting their expectations too high.

That's a mint Diablo 3 trailer in that link lol.

That's an advertisemant, the video plays after it.

Yeah I know,it's a interesting video.

Skyrim had a major feature mentioned on film by Todd Howard himself never delivered. AKA economy and having control of some degree of it.

Not all developers/publishers promise more then they deliver

For example Arena Net with GW2 they promised innovation in MMORPG genre they delivered I personally experience and say yes they are successful you not need the trinity to work you do not need fetech and turn in quests to work and you can have a persistent world of course I only played 52 hours of it so I cannot judge the entire game as of yet.

But on the other you have those who lie and its under EA.

DICE Battlefield 3 a true sequel of Battlefield 2 right there you can draw conclusions. But more so VOIP in game, Teamwork orientated game play, Largest maps in Battlefield history (being used again with the upcoming armoured fury DLC I might add), aggressive DLC program (yet to see the first DLC), PC being lead platform arguable we 64 players yes but missing various features, and of course very minor to me at least E-sport focused.

Personally I like Battlefield 3 it is better then Bad company 2 because the maps within BC2 did not support conquest they were quite poor because they were based upon 24 players as well as very linear progressive meat grinding mode.

And like Todd Howard on Oblivion's Radiant AI? I guess I just expected too much honesty from the exec.

Well said. They think they're entitled to everything. Sad to see.

I think it's a matter of degree: there has to be balance, and I think that has been lost if you look at the likes of EA and their relentless drive to extract every last penny from their customers. Of course games producers have to operate as a business otherwise they won't be able to afford to do what they do, but some of them take those considerations much too far at the expense of other important areas e.g. not rushing a game to market etc.

I think that video missed the point entirely. It did not acknowledge that the DLC was ALREADY ENTIRELY ON THE DISK... and never included it in their examples of money grabbing. It was not partially on the disk. The DLC was located there in its ENTIRETY. That is what the rage is about. That and the idea that excluding character/class combinations that are noticeably absent compared to prior titles and you get even more context to the rage.

I, myself actually burned all of my copies of EA products recently... and once I learned that Dark Age of Camelot, which I played for several years, disappeared from the market when EA bought it... ya, that made me not like them even more. DAoC was an MMO that started in 2001 and EA bought it in, I think, 2004. Just before WoW came out. They neglected it before WoW even came out instead of improving on an already great pvp centered MMO... it is not even a direct competitor with WoW because of it's design. I bet the suits there just said, "it has generic fantasy tropes in it (everything is based entirely on celtic, nordic, and arthurian mythology) therefore it must be too similar to a high-budget title to make a profit". /generic foaming mouth rant off

I do not think EA actually examines its products... they probably focus group features to see how many more copies they can sell in the first week instead of what will make the series sustainable. I guess I can not blame them since most business models consider thinking ahead 2 years is a long-term business model. Combine that management style with products that take 4+ years to make and you get awful results.

Most agree EA is the worst of the worst,on the up side some developers do things right CDProjekt springs to mind.They value customers,listen to feedback and offer free DLC.It's not all doom and gloom I guess with developers,it's just nice to see one of them value the fan and not just their money.

EA's not the worst of the worst. They are only viewed as it because of ME3 DLC which itself is bad yes but worst has happen and the same has happened.. I can name who but why bother. Until ____ next game becomes high hoped flop EA will be in the spot light.

CDproject red is an exception there are many Tripwire is another developer. Issues mainly occur when X publishers owns Y developer.

CDPR is one of the biggest and most mainstream of gaming companies right now that has a solid relationship with it's customers. I could mention others, like Egosoft, but only CDPR is at the forefront yet still behaves like an indie dev. I think they can get away with their generous policies because of GoG.