This is a bit of a rant, as well as a bit of a wall of text, so you'll have to excuse me. As well, it may get locked, but honestly this has been on my mind for a good while, and I really needed to get it off my chest.

Lately, many claims have been thrown around that X is ruining gaming as a whole. "EA is ruining gaming!" "Shooters are ruining gaming!" "MMOs are ruining gaming!" These are just a few examples of the claims that circulate gaming social circles. But I want to throw something, which is hopefully new, out on the table. An idea which many of you probably aren't going to like.

I don't think any one company, genre, or person is ruining gaming.

I think gamers are.

We do like to complain. Yesterday especially, the general consensus seemed to be that The Elder Scrolls Online A) looked like a generic fantasy MMO, sounded terrible, or C) was going to ruin TES as a franchise. That's a generalization, but it's essentially what I saw across several forums. It's not even been announced for very long, yet people are already writing it off as "just another WoW clone."

Back to that in a minute.

When The Old Republic was in beta, servers would often end up with a bit of a queue to log on to them. This queue didn't take very long, usually less than a minute or so on high population servers, and really didn't hurt the game all that much. Players [censored]ed about it non-stop on the forums. They wanted BioWare to just add more servers so that there wouldn't be queues.

And BioWare listened.

Now there are quite a few servers up for The Old Republic, but many people have migrated to higher population servers. Since BioWare increased the number of possible players on a given server, queues aren't really an issue now. At this point though, because the community is so spread out, the game can seem a bit empty. Subscriber numbers aren't dropping, but the concurrent number of players on a given server at a given time is. The community seems to believe it to be BioWare's fault, yet they forget that they are the ones who wanted more servers in the first place.

It seems to me there's too much "I want x, give me x now and you'll have released it too soon, give me x later and I won't be interested in it. Either way it's your fault." We're a very entitled bunch, more than any other industry it seems. We complain about almost everything to some extent. It's too short, it's too long, it's too generic, I don't like the setting, I think that anyone who plays x is a kid who doesn't know what games are good. This is my opinion on x subject, and it's going to be held by everyone else or you're just a sheep.

That last bit gets me the most. And it's especially prevalent in the EA is evil argument. If I disagree with you, or if I have a different opinion on something, that should be a good thing. Instead, we end up arguing about it until we're blue in the face. If someone says they like Call of Duty, more power to them. They're free to like what they want. Just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean you should throw it in their face how rubbish the series is. Because guess what? That's just, like, your opinion man.

In the end, I want to be able to civilly discuss the merits of Call of Duty. I want to talk about what makes The Elder Scrolls such a great series. I want to be able to actually talk about games without being told that I don't know what I should like. I get that enough with people telling me that I'm gay just because I don't understand how to like women properly.

I want to be able to talk to people about games in a rational manner, people who don't just jump on a given bandwagon, people who are willing to give any game a chance. Instead of writing off The Elder Scrolls Online, why can't we actually give it a chance to achieve it's goal? Same goes for The Old Republic, and any of the other countless games coming out in the next few months, including Call of Duty.

And for god's sake, why must we be so negative all the time? Can't we talk about positive things? I have enough negative things in my life right now. I use video games as my escape. But lately, it seems as if even that's failing me. Every time I hop online, I see some new complaint about something or other. I see more negative than positive.

It seems that's what the gaming community has become really. More negative than positive. Not just towards games, but also towards each other.

Can't we all just get along?

/rant

Well it was not the gamers fault for Mass Effect 3's ending.
Back on topic, what you said about swtor and bioware adding more servers ext. That was spot on and you’re argument I feel is true.

They say without negative feedback how can one improve right? But what you said this does not really fit.

You have brought up numerous valid arguments that I agree with completely. The one thing that always makes me sad about the gaming world is that every single gaming community lists every new MMO that is announced as a WoW clone. It has to be one of the biggest spoonfuls of stupidity that I hear. I have played many MMOs, each one having its own feel and look to it, but they tend to all have similar control schemes or battle systems and that is what causes people to label it as such and I hate it.

On the topic of people complaining though, We have a right to complain about something we do not like. As you said, the increase in server size, and that is a good thing. Many good things can come from listening to the community, but many bad things as well. As long as it is not too demanding of a thing, I do not think it is bad to complain about it. In America, the only way you CAN get someone to do something about just about anything is by getting a large group of people to complain about it enough for them to cave in.

Overall, I do agree with some of your statements, and i disagree on some points as well, and that is just fine. I may see things differently than others and we are all entitled to an opinion...

Just do NOT say anything bad about cupcakes, or I will come after you...

I would have said the constant dumbing down of gaming is what is ruining it.I remember a time when one had to think a bit,now days people complain if they don't see quest markers.EA is ruining gaming just look at the joke that is Bioware.

I actually think gamers don't complain enough. Not to each other though, but to the companies that have bad business practices.

Good thread, and I think you bring up good points

It's also up to the developers to decide on what they will listen to. Which is probably the hardest at all, cause the opinions of the vocal minority can be quite different from the silent majority. Like how Star Wars Galaxies got worse because they listened a lot to their vocal fanbase. Not to mention all the, well, silly ideas I've seen here over the years that wouldn't really fit TES at all, which is nice to not see in Skyrim

If it's one thing I've learnt from being a moderator here for almost a decade, it's that far more people join a forum to complain rather than to praise. If they like what they play, it's more likely they just keep playing and minding their own business

Depends on exactly what issue you mean when you say "ruin", I think, but the industry as a whole is too large and complicated that any one event is going to somehow bring it to its knees. People will say that Ingredient X is ruining the whole pie, but they'll say that about anything, regardless of the context. If they hate X they'll make the claim (and often believe) that it poisons everything around it in order to bring more people to their side (come hate X with me, it threatens you too), or simply to feel like they're part of something more large and influential. I won't break forum rules discussing it, but I'm sure you're well aware with a certain metaphor used that people will eagerly inflate the threat posed by X in order to give a personal bias a sort of phantasmal authority, to make it important and "real" instead of a narrow reflex. It's a very common sentiment in countless avenues.

There's no doubt that many gamers tend to be entitled; it's probably an inevitable pitfall of something that could be called "art for other people". It's not a necessity you have no room to maneuver on or an indirect product like a tomato, that the farmer has only partial control over the outcome of, or personal art where it's an expression of your creativity and whether other people "get it" is less important than whether you're satisfied with it. The nature of video games makes a lot of people view them as something made "just for them", and that since they're paying for it, the creator is obligated to wait hand and foot in customizing it for you. The degree of influence this actually has in ruining games, however, is arguable. A subscription-based MMO depends not only on people being satisfied with the product, but continuing to be satisfied so that they keep buying more time. While some could argue that listening to the players is the point and a good thing, it requires restraint like anything else: a small child will demand sugar with similar entitlement, and doesn't really understand that getting exactly what they want may not be a good thing after all. Other games aren't as vulnerable, and the degree to which development will cave (and who it's caving to) will vary with the example. I don't think gamers alone are ruining gaming, or at least, not to a substantially greater degree than the many other factors out there pushing it back and forth.

I do have to disagree more solidly on the negativity, though, as this is largely a matter of perspective. There are in fact arguments that positivity is ruining gaming, in that legions of devoted fans, utterly unwilling to acknowledge flaws in their objects of devotion, subsequently allow those flaws to go unfixed and fester into larger problems. From what I've seen, which side is overwhelming the other depends a lot on who you ask; it's a common factor of human perspective that whatever we don't like, seems to be everywhere. If someone has criticisms on a game, they feel surrounded by aggressive fans who will shout down any attempt to express them or try to invalidate the opinion by claiming they're a troll, a hater, or some other bit of obnoxious nonsense. If someone wants to praise a game, they feel surrounded by swarms of angry malcontents who tell them that if they enjoy any aspect of the game at all, they're an idiot who doesn't know what they're talking about and is just some kind of mindless sheep. Any sort of rational discussion on a game is generally going to require both positive and negative aspects, and a willingness to allow both to coexist.

There's a difference between feedback and negative feedback. Generally the best kind of feedback is constructive criticism, in which you suggest ways that it could be done differently. For example, you didn't like Mass Effect 3's ending, right? Rather than just stating "This ending svcks, fix it!" it's better to try to appreciate what the makers were trying to do, and then propose ways that it could be done differently. Positive reinforcement over negative.


Like I said above, there's a difference between complaining and offering constructive alternatives. One brings nothing to the table, even detracts from it, and the other tries to bring in different views.

And I'm glad you disagree with some of my points. If you didn't, the world would be a boring place. People just need to lighten up a bit I think, and be more open to other ideas.

I once had a YouTube account that had over 20,000 subscribers where I frequently made video game-related videos. I have since stopped making videos and am no longer associated with that account, but what I learned during that time was that people shouldn't listen to 95% of what their fans say.

I can only assume (and hope) most people in similar situations come to the same conclusion. More often than note, most people don't know what they're talking about.

This is the kind of negativity that I'm talking about. What do they do right? And what could they do better?

So nightwishnz, you don't like EA, okay, that's fine. But what would you have them do differently. Don't express it as "They do x badly and they need to change" but rather something more like "They do x currently, but in my opinion it would be better if they did y."


I don't mean they're causing games to be bad, more that they're causing the following around gaming in general to become more negative and hostile.

We do have some measure of entitlement since we do pay for the product, but too often this entitlement is abused.

When it comes to the positive arguments ruining gaming, those aren't really positive arguments then. If they were positive, it would have more of a positive outcome. If there's an issue with a game that bothers you, express that, but don't do it in a manner that isn't constructive. Certainly don't pretend that there isn't an issue.

Lot of good points in there, some I'd agree with.

I'm still of the camp that gamers (in general) aren't the problem, it's the gamers who spend half their day on forums. I still doubt that the majority of people who buy a game show up on forums/the internet to express their opinion. Of those who do, a large part of them are (initially) coming to express disappointment of some kind. Which means their dander is already up.

That said....being an "old fart", I do tend to feel like over the years the internet has become, overall, a more pessimistic place than it once was. Not by a lot...but a little. Most of it's just the sheer numbers. More people, the more you notice the negativity because it's harder to avoid. Or something. (edit - and "sense of entitlement" has definitely gone up...imo. Leaps and bounds)

as far as the entitled part, regarding gamers as consumers, i can agree and even relate an example i have from my own job.

Among other things at my job i am a salesman, as i my continued employment depends upon my ability to convince people they need stuff they did not originally come to purchase.

i have customers who will come to me for advice but are so opinionated that they will not even let me answer their questions. They cut me of mid answer. When i do answer their questions, and its not what they like, suddenly i'm an idiot.

People let their sense of entitlement to an opinion mess with their heads to the point in which they are all convinced they all ways know what the hell their talking about. quite often they don't.

about 95% of the time, it is always the Buyers/Gamers/Viewers/Etc fault. They always do something that ends up getting the Creators/Makers to mess up the Products/Games/Shows/etc..

Where did I say anything about EA? I'm not talking about any one company, just the disturbing trend of the legions of fans who act like it's their job to defend huge corporations rather than stick up for their own principles.

Not you, the guy above you.

I should have formatted my post a bit differently, my bad.

Regrading TES MMO. This article http://kotaku.com/5907598/first-elder-scrolls-online--details-make-it-sound-like-just-another-fantasy-mmo (yes kotaku O NEOS!!) when they state that it will World of Warcraft mechanics that is not promising. On top of housing "too hard" for a MMO? Personally that is a bad sign what else is too hard for them? What will ES MMO bring to the table? SWTOR had story decent story made by Bioware is who know good story telling TERA has actiony combat GW2 has active combat and alters almost all features, Lotro has Tolkien lore great world, WoW stable and large consumer base with massive amount of content.

But even without that statement MMOs will compared to WoW because it is successful the most successful franchise in the current industry of MMORPGs. So comapring to the largest competitior that everyone knows is going to relate to more people then comparable it to another.

Swtor and every MMO has problems on launch thus far as far I can remember. Nothing can prepare an MMO with the millions upon millions of people logging in and have 100% success rate. Swtor had the server issue, it was a issue people made sure EA/Bioware knew about it because they paid for the game and limited of time to play it (due to subscription model) so yes people will rage. Most recently TERA launch had a major issue various people could not log in because they had "no game time available" meaning they had re sub to get more. Of course they fixed issue in a short but still it was news worthy and especially the TERA forums erupted because like SWTOR its on a sub system and wasting time = money.

As for EA in general they made huge mistake DLC does not mean Disk Locked Content its Downloadable content. ME3 had Disk Locked content however they are NOT the first to do such. Currently there is a lot of EA IS THE WORST COMPANY IN THE WORLD!!! threads because they have the spotlight whenever a new mistake arises from a prominent developer and or publisher eyes will shift away from EA and then all the hatred will be aimed at them.

COD downhill PC support went out window Activision has shunned PC consumer altogether i can list why but I rather not because it is quite long. Same can apply to Bethesda but they still allow mod tools so +1 for them but for some that doesn't overwrite intrusive online DRM for a SP only game or poor UI as well as poor support and launch quality.



But in general complainers are needed that is how capitalism works if you do not criticize the flaws it will not be fixed. If you do point flaws and they do not fix it and a competitor has or done what you asked you can go to them. Going YAY GOODY FOR YOU!! EPIC OF EPIC GAMES YAY. Is pointless especially on forums you thanked them with your money they do not need anymore then that the flaws should be pointed and fix people who don't "have" said flaws doesn't matter it is very much a issue even if personally you do not or won't accept have the same issue. For example I CTD every hour on the hour in Skyrim until 1.3(4?) which ever LAA patch released they fixed the flaw thankfully they need 3rd party to do so but they fixed it.

But yes you will come across those who just whine to whine but you are very much entitled for a working product what "working" means varies some mean play with CTD's such as me others mean if X feature is not in game it is broken.

What could have Bioware done right well??Here is a idea build on what the original Mass Effect had instead of stripping features away,and maybe just maybe keep the promise you offered fans about decisions and the endings.Seriously it would have not been that hard to keep the Mass Effect fan base happy.

If you look at minecraft as an example of consumer feedback. There was a problem with ladders in the game, tons of people complained by saying "ladders are broke, fix them!!!!!" and the developers only knew that people hated how the ladders were, but had no idea how people wanted them. so they ended up making them worse.

so blindly screaming that something is bad is not a good idea, telling them what would make it better rather than what makes it bad is the only way to get the change you want. Even then thats still a maybe, because what you want might simply be good for no one else.

I agree with this completely.
Saying what you do not like raises questions.

Saying how you would fix it creates answers.

wow... I just came up with a quote that could be remembered pretty well... sweet.

I agree with a lot of what you have to say. It's also best to stay away from the Rage forums as I see a lot of what you're describing happening over there.

At this point, we really don't have enough information to even begin to form a solid opinion on the title. Really not until the game is released. Just because it works in a way similar to WoW does not mean that it's going to be a WoW clone. Housing is almost impossible to pull off correctly in an MMO just because of the sheer number of players. If you have instanced player housing, it breaks immersion. The one exception to this is SWTOR's "housing" since each player has their own starship. If you have housing outside of an instance, then you end up like Star Wars Galaxies with player houses EVERYWHERE.

Housing isn't the only thing too difficult to really pull off in an MMO, but it's probably the hardest.


Naturally, I don't think that's a bad thing though.


The reason the DLC was partially located on the disc is because of the way content is loaded. It really didn't have anything to do with locking off a whole section of the disc just to charge you for it. In fact, I'd wager Skyrim has some of the files for the upcoming Dawnguard DLC on the disc. It's just the way the current technology works. On PC it's not an issue of course.


Again though, there's a difference between complaining and actually bringing valuable information to the table. If there's a glitch in a game, report it, but don't spam forums about it.


They did. Really the only thing I can think of that they REALLY removed from Mass Effect was the vendors selling you armor that all pretty much worked the same, streamlining the way leveling, stats, and skills worked, and adding in an ammo system.

Your choices do still carry over. At the very last minute, no, but throughout the entire game. The fact that they managed to pull that much off is impressive alone, wouldn't you say? So really, the endings aren't that big of a deal when you look at the big picture. Could they have changed it a bit? Yes, and they are adding in more variation later in the year, so they are listening to fan feedback. But really, I don't see the issue. I've played the series since the first game came out in 2007, but I didn't become enraged about the ending.

The main issue I have was the lies,quote from Casey Hudson "This story arc is coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot more different. At this point we're taking into account so many decisions that you've made as a player and reflecting a lot of that stuff. It's not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C" Mike Gamble"There are many different endings.we wouldn't do it any other way.How could you not go through all three campaigns plays as your Sheppard and then be force into a bespoke ending that everyone gets?"

While I understand somethings simply cannot work into a MMO such as Crysis 3/Battlefield 3 graphics housing has been done even in everquest as well as other games. Some better then others but it is still very much possible. I would understand if the article stated "Housing is too hard to do in MMORPG that we are making because it doesn't fit for open world" that's understandable and yes we have little info and can't entirely judge the entire game but speculation is bliss. Right now you have more affect on the game then you will have after launch because the game is in development. But with that said due to our lack information it leaves various holes, like how long has this MMO been in development? Who is the development team? What feature will your MMO be strong at or introduce to the genre? Will your MMO be sub based and if so why be subbed based?


If its on DISK fully developed working 100% very much so and a decent amount of content is accessible for certain people either because they bought this edition or they bought it at a certain store. It should be unlocked for EVERYONE a little skin or cosmetic item fine to me personally but still same applies really. Content that is at least 15 minute or especially 4 hours (like Risen 2 had) that is on disk should be available for everyone who purchased the game. EA portrayed the extra content to be DLC that you downloaded off MS/Sony/Origin networks after you got the game that was not the case it was on the disk period and could be "unlocked" by literally a 0 to 1 so you are paying $20 extra for EA to change 0 to 1 rubs people wrong. Now as for the expansion for Skyrim they will probably use the same textures/VO as the standard disk contains but other then that new content/VO/areas/etc are not part of vanilla are not in the disk they would found by PC no doubt if they were.

[opinion] Business has ruined gaming.

Soo..... your butt hurt Elder Scrolls Online has been called out on being a generic looking MMO? That and the sky is falling apparently. I didn't know anything was ruined ever. Faulty illogical premises is faulty.

Edit
Why? Because we have a finite amount of time. Everything is competing for our time and money. We can literally not devote ourselves to making sure every game succeeds. There just simply isn't the time, people, or money. It's just basic math. As for humans, they're most likely hardwired biased to being negative. I'm not saying they all are, but the majority are. There is a science to how come we can't pick "good" things, but we sure as hell know how to call out things on being dumb. I see no problem with anything, just people taking it upon themselves to have problems.