?? what do you mean?? I have made 2 demigods and 3 legit play throughs and the only argument that I can agree with (on this topic) is that it gets old very quick when playing a god. But I like the fact that the choice is there, this is the first Elder scrolls game for console that you could "mod it out" in terms.What is so diff. between a PC player downloading a mod and me using exploits? It's up to you to decide weather or not to download that mod or use the exploits in the game.

You could still be a god practically with these changes, just if you want to max your enchanting you'd have to invest as many perks as you would if you were to get all the cool/relevant perks in a weapon line.

Bolded part is the problem.

The player is given the ability to exploit the system, because the system has no checks and balances, which makes the system broken.

A proper system would allow us to mass lots of power and yet the game would still have some sort of counter for it, at least now and then.

A proper system would not ever make it so that the only way to make the game both fun and challenging is to make the player "gimp" themselves.

I still think 85% is too little, and it is all about choosing, you can choose not to over power yourself. I know people who won't use anything that's more powerful than steel armor, when they find dwemer armor etc. they sell it and move on, I don't see why enchanting should be any different. And playing as a god works fine, you are the dragonborn after all, and if things are going to be so balanced all the time you once again end up with a problem. You don't get a feeling of progression. Enchanting, smithing etc. is one of the things that helps give you an advantage.

No, Jerian's angle is 'this isn't the strongest enchantment, but it'll do for now'.
As a Mage, he wears his novice robes of destruction and an Amulet from Saarthal. His enchanting skill comes purely from trying to enchanting his ring and boots so that they reduce his magicka consumption' making him more able to put down foes. And of course he always uses the largest gem - why wouldn't he? Even with his low level of enchanting he can do an additional 10 points of frost damage with his dagger. Not too shabby.

Shag's angle is that of Our Warrior Hero.

You make a Noble Hero. Who willing doesn't use the best Enchantments to fight foes.

Again, the only counter argument so far is "then dont do it"

Dragonborn does not equal god. My proposal doesn't even stop you from being one, you just have to wait a little longer and put more of a commitment into doing it. You want to have godlike enchants? Give something up in order to do so. Makes the player make choices and decide, adds strategy and makes for different builds.

Enchanting is an absurdly easy skill to level, and you get to be a "god" way too early.

Bah, I became a god without enchanting, so I wouldn't say that enchanting is the main problem when it comes to becoming godlike.

And there aren't really any other counter arument than "then don't use it".
Just like there really isn't any other argument than "This has to be more balanced because I don't have willpower enough to restrain myself".

No cap required, or wanted, in my opinion. You can get zero cost spells in particular school of magic, or carry multiple sets of gear and have zero cost spells in all of them. But you must sacrifice something else in order to do this. It's a choice you make. You also have a choice about whether you want to just play the game, smith and enchant when you want something in particular, or whether you want to spend an hour or two boosting your smithing and enchanting skills. I prefer the option to choose the way I want to play. This isn't a multi player game, it isn't a competition against other players.

Skyrim can be a very simple, easy game to play or it can be complicated and difficult. The choice is in your hands and for me that is the mark of a good RPG. Start enforcing difficulty on players and I am convinced you would upset many more people who enjoy the freedom to choose their own destiny in the game.

Um... actually there is.

Balance is very important to games because balance can be a direct influence, or rather is the direct influence, on things like "fun" and "challenge."

Here's just one of many logical arguments against self "gimping."

The game is designed, or should be, so that the ultimate goal is for the player to beat it.

It is not designed so that the player has to "gimp" themselves to give the game a chance to compete against the player.

That is simply bad design.

Difficulty is already enforced by having the perk system in place period. If the difficulty was purely up to the player, you could decide what level you start at and what skills you have.

Some people think I'm trying to make the game too difficult by making you wait six more levels and spend six more perks to get what is basically the biggest set of buffs in the game. Strange to me.

Yeah the last fight in the main questline (don't want to give spoilers) was too easy because of this.

Exactly, my first run through was legit without spending any perks in magic what so ever and he became a god rather early on, enchanting is just one side of what can make you a god, there is also alchemy and smith. Each of these skills can potentially make you OP and the combination of all three will most certainly make you a god, but I cannot think of any other argument then don't exploit them, and your idea is a good one but it only post pones the inevitable rise to becoming a god.

One problem, you can't really beat Skyrim, and I'm having fun, so balance isn't the direct influence of "fun".
And why is it bad design? It offers you a choise between being god-like or being normal, that's better than just being forced into the role as the balanced main character that never get's anywhere, because everything is a balanced struggle.

And the last battle wasn't boring because of this,

You're kind of making my argument for me actually. I think you should, by the time you hit the 40s, feel pretty badass. I'm not against you feeling really, really powerful, I just don't think you should be that way by level 23.

I've made characters that don't smith, enchant, alchemy before. My argonian archer doesn't use enchanting.

Ande there we have solid proof that it is possible to restrain yourself.

/thread.

There lies the problem for these people who want to restrict the game mechanics; self-control and decision making. IMO, the perk system does no more than replicate real life where you have a choice to specialise in something or become a general jack of all trades master of none. That is the aim of a RPG. When RPGs were first introduced to me I asked my friend what it was about, what were the rules? His response "you can do what you like" was the main attraction. Take that away and RPGs lose their attraction.

Bolded part is completely incorrect. Skyrim has a Main Quest, an ending to the main narrative story of the game. That means the main objective of the game, in this case defeating Alduin, has a "win/lose" condition. If you "win" you have beaten the game.

Not to mention every single enemy encounter is its own conflict that must be beaten.

You're having fun, awesome. Why? You're not taking certain Perks, or not using certain systems to make your character more powerful.

Thus, you are balancing the game, because if you did take those Perks, or used certain systems to their maximum, the game would therefore be unbalanced; thus you are the one balancing the game so that it is fun for you.

Why is it bad design?

Because again, games are meant to be beaten. As you level up the game is supposed to get harder to give the player more incentive to get better and progress through the game. And you are very incorrect if you believe that a balanced game means you never get anywhere.

As for your spoiler... just another example of bad balancing.

Cute.

I can also restrain myself from driving down the road at 95 mph, but I also believe that there should be laws that state you can only drive so fast.

I can restrain myself from exploiting the enchantment tree, but if I have to restrain myself from using a certain tree in order for the balance to not be tilted so much that it is no longer a challenge, then I believe it needs to be fixed.

I think there's a lot of people running around in perked, smithed, double enchanted Daedric armor slinging spells who haven't put a single increase into magicka when they've leveled and realized they'd be screwed if this change happened.

The only way you can reach god like status by Lv.23 is by using every exploit in the book on top of the Oghma , on top of the restoration potion loop. You actually don't reach demigod status in a legit game until Lv.40 ish. I know cause of experience, my first "legit" character never really felt bad ass until he reach Lv.40-50, and my " God of war" Orc became a god by Lv.15 using all the exploits. It is up to you to choose weather or not to exploit the game.

Well, the thing with skyrim is that sure a game is supposed to become harder, and it does become harder (MQ, Alduin is harder that the first dragon etc.), but this is an open world game and think about it, should bandits also become harder? and in that case why? They do level with you to a certain degree at least, so the game does become harder or stay the same. And I didn't balance the game I just took the perks that I wanted in order to get the build that I thought would be fun, and that included becoming a demi-god at level 25, and killing the entire city of whiterun bare-handed at level 30.

And Myrhn, sure there are laws that say that you shouldn't drive down the road at 95 mph, but you still can.

Restrain yourself...

It's like taking the abstinence angle and applying it to a video game.

"Abstinence is the only true form of safe six."

Yes, just like the only way to practice safe skiing is to never go skiing. We're talking about "safety" (balance) while still performing the damn actions we want to perform.

No, because we don't say "don't enchant stuff at all" we simply say that you don't have a choise when you enchant your [censored], you can choose to make good, balanced enchantments.

I disagree. I've never used such loop and its easy to feel overpowered by the low 20s.

Walk into Bleak Falls Barrow at 10-15th level with 20-25 soul gems and a soul trap weapon, you'll see.

You're looking at this from a black and white rather than the common game design shades of grey.

Should Bandits progress through the game with you?

Sure. (Here's my white to your black, or vice versa)

But not all of them. (There's the grey)

Do normal Bandits need to wear Daedric, or be given a 300 Armor boost or something akin to that?

Absolutely not.

But a Bandit Lord, or whatever the highest version of Bandit is, they are the ones that could get some of the special treatment... and it doesn't even have to be better equipment or a 300 Armor bonus.

Give the Bandit Lord perks that the player has access to. If he's using an Axe or a Mace, why can't he cleave through your 500 Armor the same way you can cleave through his 100 Armor?

Why aren't more traps actually hidden. Like... actually camouflaged to where a player has to stop and look hard for a bit of time before they spot it?

Why don't Bandits cast Calm on the player to make them sheath their weapons?

Why don't Bandits cast a temporary Dispel or Disenchant on the player to neutralize their buffs?


What logical sense does it make to toss aside a Grand Soul Gem that has a Grand Soul in it to use a Petty Gem instead?

Really, what logical sense does that make?

"Yes sir... instead of doing 10 Fire Damage with each hit... y'know I'd rather only do 2, don't want to hurt my foes too much after all."