Horrendous GPU Problem (nVidia) and the straw that broke the

Post » Mon May 28, 2012 4:39 pm

Bethesda,

Let me begin by stating that I have been a "really devoted fan" of your company since 2003 when I first bought "Morrowind: GOTY". That game and the modding community blew me away and I am still actively playing it to this day. The game rewrote my expectations for modern PC games and as such, I am the proud owner of the entire Fallout series along with the Elder Scrolls series from 3 onward.

However, The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim has been such a poor experience for me that I am strongly considering never purchasing another product developed and/or published by your company or its affiliates again. The Elder Scrolls was originally made for the PC community, the PC community gave you the success that you rightly deserved, and yet the PC community now finds itself getting shafted by the very company that they had a part in making the behemoth that is has become. Let me begin by listing the general gamebreaking bugs and/or performance issues that I personally have come across:

1) Quest breaking bugs: The vast majority of these have already been listed by the community here so I will not bother recounting them. I will state that while my expectations were low in regards to a "bug-free" experience, Skyrim has been a complete mess, even more so then Fallout: New Vegas (Which I couldn't even play at release due to the lag issues. I had to wait for a community fix in order to proceed past Goodsprings) or Oblivion. Skyrim is, effectively, unplayable for me as well.

2) Complete and utter lack of beta testing: I understand that you will claim that you beta tested. How can you not in today's litigious society? However, I staunchly believe that your beta testing team consists of a bunch of monkeys jumping up and down on the keyboard and eating bananas all day. You should be ashamed and humiliated by even claiming to have beta tested this game.

3) Shoddy patches: As you are undoubtedly aware, your patches tend to break the game rather than fix the game! As this has been well-documented on the official forums, I will spare the detail here. I will claim that this further confirms point #2 of this letter.

4) Favoritism towards Xbox 360 owners while pushing PS3 and PC owners to the side:

PC) I understand that Microsoft paid you to release the DLC a month early for the users of their gaming system. I am angry because PC gamers are the ones who made your company what it is today and yet you flock to the newest segment of gamers, the console users, while essentially ignoring the PC community. Would it really hurt your company to show some respect to those who made you what you are today?

PS3) While my dislike of console gamers is obvious, even I cannot ignore the plight of PS3 users. Skyrim is effectively UNPLAYABLE on their console! Yes, the memory is a problem. Yes, you're trying to correct the problem, this is common knowledge. Why release it on the PS3 and willingly let people spend $60 on a game that will eventually become unplayable? Please don't acknowledge the hypothesis that you had no idea that this would occur because, if you do acknowledge that, you will have given further proof for point #2 in that no true beta testing occurred. Therefore, I believe that you knew and released it anyway thinking that you could always fix it later. It saddens me to even consider this possibility but it seems to be the only explanation. I would sincerely hope to be proven wrong in this regard but I doubt that I ever will be.

5) Creation Kit: At first the Creation Kit was to be released at launch, then it was pushed back to December, now January... Your word seems to be as good as a paper bag in a hurricane. A large reason for this, beyond the delays and broken promises, is that your communication with the community on your OFFICIAL FORUMS is nonexistent. The community would not be so frustrated with you on this topic if you would just keep us in the loop, instead you chose to ignore us. What a way to treat your PC community Bethesda.

6) An extreme LACK of CPU/GPU Optimization: Here is where my real complaint begins. When I first purchased Skyrim, I was playing it on an Asus G60VX whose specs were; Core 2 Duo P7450 @2.13Ghz, nVidia GTX 260M, 4 GB of RAM. I managed to play on a mixture of medium/high and my performance was acceptable up until patch 1.2 which completely ruined the game until patch 1.3. However, that patch did not fix the new performance issues (which were the same as the majority of the PC community) that I was having so I decided to quit until I read that my issues had been addressed. This plan was altered, however, when I built my new gaming PC with the following specs: ASUS Crosshair IV MOBO, AMD Phenom II X4 970 BE OC'ed to 3.8Ghz, Asus Geforce GTX 560 DC II OC 1GB (OC'ed further to 950/1200/1900 on voltage of 1.087), 16 GB of G-Skill RAM. My temps never exceed 51C under load on my GPU and 51C on my CPU and both overclocks are completely stable as tested using various stress-testing programs/gaming sessions/etc. Now, I am running everything maxed and my performance is still sub-par with my FPS dropping from 60-20-60-30... you get the idea. Now before you say "Lower the settings!" realize that this computer is fully capable of maxing this game out with vanilla textures/meshes, etc. In fact, I claim that my computer is having FPS issues due to a complete and utter disregard for proper code optimization. Backing up my claim, I present the mod "Skyboost". This mod optimizes certain aspects of Skyrim and now my FPS varies from between 34-45 in Markarth for an average of 43 (Before I was low 20's, low 30's) and mid 40's to high 50's in Whiterun and Solitude. Same settings without the mod as with the mod and yet I see an improvement, on average, of 10-15 FPS. You should be embarrassed releasing a product with such an obvious lack of optimization that programmers without the Creation Kit [CK] or any in-depth knowledge of the game engine are able to optimize your code for you.

GPU Optimization: Here is the straw that broke the camels back. Early this afternoon, I decided to edit my GPU settings under the nVidia control panel. I changed my AA to 8X, my AF to 16X, among other things and generally made my Global settings my settings for all games so I wouldn't have to worry about messing with individual games graphics settings. Of course, I made it so that the GPU overrode any applications settings. Now, I went and played COD: MW3 for some time and had 0 FPS issues. After that, I thought "What the heck" and loaded up Skyrim to continue on with my character (Note: I did turn off AA and AF in the Skyrim start-up Menu due to it being on via nVidia control panel). Imagine my surprise when I suddenly had unplayable FPS jumps! By that I mean the FPS would suddenly jump from 45 to 33-34 back up to 45 (In Whiterun). It did this every few seconds no matter if I was outside, inside, looking at the menu, loading a cell, looking at the main game menu, etc. After checking my GPU Usage using GPU Tweak from ASUS (Excellent program btw, been using it since Beta for anyone reading this who is looking for an alternative to MSI Afterburner) I saw that my GPU usage would skyrocket from 50-60 to 98-99 and back down again every few seconds while I was playing the game. Thinking that my Overclock had become unstable, I reset the GPU back to stock and loaded up Skyrim to compare. There was NO difference. I had the same problem as before. I then re-OC'ed my GPU and reset my GPU settings back to "application-controlled" and started up Skyrim yet again. After resetting my graphic settings back to default (Which is Ultra-High so AA and AF at 8X and 16X respectively) all my FPS stuttering issues were gone! After repeating this process multiple times, I can confirm that Skyrim does not play nice with the nVidia Control Panel.

While this may seem like a trivial issue ("Just turn AA and AF on in the Skyrim start-up menu!") it is a major issue to me. It was the issue that finally made me break and write this letter. While I sympathize with how hard designing and programming a game of this magnitude can be, the game should still be able to run properly on release date. Being an avid student of Economics, I can also understand the pressures that the market (especially investors) can place on a company but in the same breath one must realize that releasing a shoddy product such as this will only drive future consumers away from your brand. It will only hurt you in the long run. For every person who bothers to write a letter to your company, there are 1000 others who just throw your game into the trash and say "Never again!". Who can blame them?

Sincerely,

Black_Shark

Edit: Apparently I cannot use the word f.a.n.b.o.y. so the forum replaced that word with "really devoted fan". Interesting, however I was the former.
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GRAEME
 
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Post » Tue May 29, 2012 8:55 am

i could sign some of this....
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Marion Geneste
 
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Post » Tue May 29, 2012 3:59 am

Be aware that there is no interactive response in here. We have been told that there is some overview of the activity here by Bethesda, but there is never any immediate evidence of it. TTBOMK, and I predate you by a long way, having owned and played Arena when it was new, and Daggerfal (that one) also, this standoffish behavior is company policy, always has been.
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BlackaneseB
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 10:49 pm

Be aware that there is no interactive response in here. We have been told that there is some overview of the activity here by Bethesda, but there is never any immediate evidence of it. TTBOMK, and I predate you by a long way, having owned and played Arena when it was new, and Daggerfal (that one) also, this standoffish behavior is company policy, always has been.

I understand and I do not expect a reply from them.
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Haley Merkley
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 6:21 pm

Well you certainly put them in their place. I support you and hope you never play another Bethesda game again. You should also cancel your membership to these forums. When they see they're numbers going down they get the message. Again, you should leave these forums to show them the error of their ways. Maybe you could start a movement and take some of the other whiners with you. Boycotting is a much bigger statement than posting here.
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Hannah Whitlock
 
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Post » Tue May 29, 2012 5:17 am

Well you certainly put them in their place. I support you and hope you never play another Bethesda game again. You should also cancel your membership to these forums. When they see they're numbers going down they get the message. Again, you should leave these forums to show them the error of their ways. Maybe you could start a movement and take some of the other whiners with you. Boycotting is a much bigger statement than posting here.

Thanks for the advice Cochese! Words cannot express the gratitude that I have for your sound advice!

Excuse the sarcasm.
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Marie Maillos
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 4:44 pm

I am using 560ti / 1024 all setting in Skyrim OFF And the Game is Gorgeous and smooth!

Using Nvidia Inspector to set...
AA behavior flags = Skyrim
AA mode = Overide
AA= 4x
AA Trans multi =OFF
AA Trans Super Sampling = 4x

AF= user defined
AF = 16x
Texture Filter optimation = ON
Texture Filtering sample optimations = ON
Texture filtering LOD bias (DX9) = -1 (if this is to crystal clear for you the default is 0)
Texture Filtering - Negitive LOD bias = Clamp (default is "allow", causes tearing)
Texture filtering - quality = Performance
Texture filtering Trilinier = ON

AO = OFF ( using ENB to give me AO)
Frame rate limiter = 59 (cap below 60 to help with stutter/twitching)
Max pre rendered frames = 3 (this is important)***see note below
Multi display GPU acceleration = single display
Tripple Buffering = ON ***see note below

***Note:
The game needs more buffering to get smooth game play, to achieve this try .....

You need to use a program to force the Triple Buffering. (I use Direct 3d overrider), Using that and 3 frames rendered ahead the GPU is always ready to give you fluid motion!!

All the above settings took some extreme testing, to finally get Smooth play with an Nvidia Card. Using Skyboost and a handful of HD mods , I play extended periods, record straight run to date...19 hours. your mileage WILL vary. I have been with Bethesda since "Arena" so i can Agree with a lot of what you have posted , but then I also understand they will cater to the Money.

But Nvidia is not broken by a long shot. Are you using the newest "Beta" driver 290.53? it was made just for us!! First driver i ever used, that had Game Screenshots IN the Installer!!
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JR Cash
 
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Post » Tue May 29, 2012 2:10 am

I am using 560ti / 1024 all setting in Skyrim OFF And the Game is Gorgeous and smooth!

Using Nvidia Inspector to set...
AA behavior flags = Skyrim
AA mode = Overide
AA= 4x
AA Trans multi =OFF
AA Trans Super Sampling = 4x

AF= user defined
AF = 16x
Texture Filter optimation = ON
Texture Filtering sample optimations = ON
Texture filtering LOD bias (DX9) = -1 (if this is to crystal clear for you the default is 0)
Texture Filtering - Negitive LOD bias = Clamp (default is "allow", causes tearing)
Texture filtering - quality = Performance
Texture filtering Trilinier = ON

AO = OFF ( using ENB to give me AO)
Frame rate limiter = 59 (cap below 60 to help with stutter/twitching)
Max pre rendered frames = 3 (this is important)***see note below
Multi display GPU acceleration = single display
Tripple Buffering = ON ***see note below

***Note:
The game needs more buffering to get smooth game play, to achieve this try .....

You need to use a program to force the Triple Buffering. (I use Direct 3d overrider), Using that and 3 frames rendered ahead the GPU is always ready to give you fluid motion!!

All the above settings took some extreme testing, to finally get Smooth play with an Nvidia Card. Using Skyboost and a handful of HD mods , I play extended periods, record straight run to date...19 hours. your mileage WILL vary. I have been with Bethesda since "Arena" so i can Agree with a lot of what you have posted , but then I also understand they will cater to the Money.

But Nvidia is not broken by a long shot. Are you using the newest "Beta" driver 290.53? it was made just for us!! First driver i ever used, that had Game Screenshots IN the Installer!!

I am hesitant to use any current driver that nVidia has released lately and will not use a "Beta" driver unless thoroughly proven to be stable. This is because every time I download a new driver, it "breaks" my games and I am forced to revert back to the last stable driver I have found (275.33). As I said above, I can run the game smoothly using Skyboost and the applications graphic settings but using nVidia control panel to override the application settings = big NO NO for me.

Considering the fact that with my GPU OC'ed to 950/1200/1900, I have better performance with the 560 than with a stock 560ti I find it interesting that you can run it smoothly using nVidia controls.
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Tanya Parra
 
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Post » Tue May 29, 2012 8:16 am

yeah i can't use ati catalyst control panel to over ride the AF or AA... just causes performance stuttering and issues....

ENB is a huge turn off... making for some effects looking marginally better but most of looking terrible with a MASSIVE performance impact not to mention "some" stability issues.... personally i think enb doesn't play nice with big resolutions.

Using triple buffering is a no no...... for me..... 2gb of vram..... leaves very little room for triple buffering with the hd textures..... great if your running mostly vanilla though.... or 1080p or less to squeeze in triple buffering.
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Eduardo Rosas
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 5:42 pm

I am hesitant to use any current driver that nVidia has released lately and will not use a "Beta" driver unless thoroughly proven to be stable. This is because every time I download a new driver, it "breaks" my games and I am forced to revert back to the last stable driver I have found (275.33). As I said above, I can run the game smoothly using Skyboost and the applications graphic settings but using nVidia control panel to override the application settings = big NO NO for me.

I have over 60 hours with the "Beta" do not worry....To date I have 328 hours invested in this game(according to steam) some hours missing because of patch 1.2, and I do not worry about breaking the Game.

I do not use Nvidia CP...use Nvidia Inspector...FTW
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Rinceoir
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 5:45 pm

I have over 60 hours with the "Beta" do not worry....To date I have 328 hours invested in this game(according to steam) some hours missing because of patch 1.2, and I do not worry about breaking the Game.

I do not use Nvidia CP...use Nvidia Inspector...FTW

One person is not an acceptable sample size for me. I would rather wait for a confirmed (by multiple sources and people) stable driver such as 275.33 than take the risk, no offense. The last time I DL'ed a new non-beta driver (285.62), none of my games would get above 5 FPS. No thank you.
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Caroline flitcroft
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 8:56 pm

I don't understand how its a risk...but your choice to complain then not take steps to fix...If one were to take a poll here, think you would find most everyone is using the "Beta"...hmm think this is a post in the making.
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R.I.P
 
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Post » Tue May 29, 2012 1:16 am

I am hesitant to use any current driver that nVidia has released lately and will not use a "Beta" driver unless thoroughly proven to be stable. This is because every time I download a new driver, it "breaks" my games and I am forced to revert back to the last stable driver I have found (275.33). As I said above, I can run the game smoothly using Skyboost and the applications graphic settings but using nVidia control panel to override the application settings = big NO NO for me. Considering the fact that with my GPU OC'ed to 950/1200/1900, I have better performance with the 560 than with a stock 560ti I find it interesting that you can run it smoothly using nVidia controls.

First off, I feel your pain. It took close to 40 hours of my time to get this game to run how it should on my somewhat highend PC. However, I haven't had any issues with the NVidia control panel and Skyrim. The two seem to work well together in my case. I have AF & AA disabled in Skyrimprefs.ini, but enabled in NVidia control panel. No issues. I have vsync forced on in the control panel, while using a frame limiter with mandatory vsync disabled in skyrim. Vsync is on and forced through NVidia control panel. Ambient Occlusion settings work well in the control panel. I think your problem with this specific issue you're having is driver related. If you haven't tried the 290.53 beta drivers yet, you should. Skyrim performance is much more smooth and stable with them over 275.33. I would svck up your dislike for beta drivers and try them, because you're going to have lots of issues with future PC games if you don't. NVidia is famous for having better beta drivers than WHQL drivers. Give them a shot, and good luck. By the way, I support your letter to Bethesda. Shame they will likely never read it. Viva Skyboost!
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Anna Watts
 
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Post » Tue May 29, 2012 8:36 am

@OP -I agree with point 6, but the others were an overreaction.

In regards to point 6, I have a GTX 580 with an i5-2500k @ 4.2Ghz and I have a constant 60fps everywhere with vsync, even in Whiterun with 30+ Texture Mods. These are my settings, try and use them yourself and report back here if you want me to help;

1920x1080
Latest Nvidia Driver
uGridsLoad = 7
Ultra-settings but with Shadows on High (IMPORTANT!)
AA and FF OFF in Skyrim Launcher, 32 x CSAA & 8 x SuperSampling and 16 x AF in Nvidia Control Panel (NCP)
Single Display Mode and Prefer Maximum Performance in NCP
Texture Filtering =Clamp
Texture Filtering = High Quality
Ambient Occlusion = On (Performance) - (Turn Off for extra 8fps)

No other Ini tweaks whatsoever.

Other tips

Defrag HDD
Use Skyboost R4


If you are experiencing FPS issues still then turn Ambient Occlusion OFF and make sure Shadows are High. If High is too much change to medium, it hardly makes any difference.

Please come back with your results, your computer should handle this game easily.
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Annick Charron
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 8:34 pm

Agreed with the Op and to add insult to injury, PC Gamer gave it GOTY.
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k a t e
 
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Post » Tue May 29, 2012 5:44 am

First off, I feel your pain. It took close to 40 hours of my time to get this game to run how it should on my somewhat highend PC. However, I haven't had any issues with the NVidia control panel and Skyrim. The two seem to work well together in my case. I have AF & AA disabled in Skyrimprefs.ini, but enabled in NVidia control panel. No issues. I have vsync forced on in the control panel, while using a frame limiter with mandatory vsync disabled in skyrim. Vsync is on and forced through NVidia control panel. Ambient Occlusion settings work well in the control panel. I think your problem with this specific issue you're having is driver related. If you haven't tried the 290.53 beta drivers yet, you should. Skyrim performance is much more smooth and stable with them over 275.33. I would svck up your dislike for beta drivers and try them, because you're going to have lots of issues with future PC games if you don't. NVidia is famous for having better beta drivers than WHQL drivers. Give them a shot, and good luck. By the way, I support your letter to Bethesda. Shame they will likely never read it. Viva Skyboost!

Well, I am going to give 290.53 a try. Let's see if it plays nice with my other games.
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Quick draw II
 
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Post » Tue May 29, 2012 3:22 am

@OP -I agree with point 6, but the others were an overreaction.

In regards to point 6, I have a GTX 580 with an i5-2500k @ 4.2Ghz and I have a constant 60fps everywhere with vsync, even in Whiterun with 30+ Texture Mods. These are my settings, try and use them yourself and report back here if you want me to help;

1920x1080
Latest Nvidia Driver
uGridsLoad = 7
Ultra-settings but with Shadows on High (IMPORTANT!)
AA and FF OFF in Skyrim Launcher, 32 x CSAA & 8 x SuperSampling and 16 x AF in Nvidia Control Panel (NCP)
Single Display Mode and Prefer Maximum Performance in NCP
Texture Filtering =Clamp
Texture Filtering = High Quality
Ambient Occlusion = On (Performance) - (Turn Off for extra 8fps)

No other Ini tweaks whatsoever.

Other tips

Defrag HDD
Use Skyboost R4


If you are experiencing FPS issues still then turn Ambient Occlusion OFF and make sure Shadows are High. If High is too much change to medium, it hardly makes any difference.

Please come back with your results, your computer should handle this game easily.

Thank you. I will update sometime tonight/tomorrow with the results.
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Camden Unglesbee
 
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Post » Tue May 29, 2012 5:52 am

2) Complete and utter lack of beta testing

lol Are you ignorant or were you just carried away with your rant?
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Jesus Sanchez
 
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Post » Tue May 29, 2012 5:00 am

lol Are you ignorant or were you just carried away with your rant?

Yes, it was an exaggeration but nonetheless I stand by what I said. I do not think that Bethesda tested the game as fully as they should have.
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Kill Bill
 
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Post » Tue May 29, 2012 6:24 am

Well, It's mostly thanks to the modders I'm playing this game because the released default version and settings were like they force me to play an Xbox360, Thankfully now I have a superior version with high resolution textures, mouse, FOV and performance enhancements.
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Love iz not
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 7:50 pm

Yes, it was an exaggeration but nonetheless I stand by what I said. I do not think that Bethesda tested the game as fully as they should have.

I'm not going to stick up for Bethesda as there are certainly issues that testing should have revealed. However, the major problem that I - and many others - have only becomes serious once you have played for a LONG time, so it is somewhat less likely to have been flagged by "routine" testing. I sincerely hope that the upcomming patch fixes it!
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Rob
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 6:42 pm

Thank you. I will update sometime tonight/tomorrow with the results.

Don't be fooled by the 'beta' tag - that beta Nvidia driver is awesome. I test the crap out of these things in multiple games...fps benchmarks, vid compares etc etc. If you are playing skyrim on nvidia, you have to use that driver.





You need to use a program to force the Triple Buffering. (I use Direct 3d overrider), Using that and 3 frames rendered ahead the GPU is always ready to give you fluid motion!!

@ camaro - I've never used D3D overrider before, installed a few weeks ago but since ENB wasn't playing nicely with it, I set it aside. Now latest ENB allows for more overlay program flex...I can get the game to launch with D3D running, but I see no difference at all...I'm convinced I'm doing something wrong even though in D3D I have triple-buffer on for TESV.exe. Anything obvious I'm missing?
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Heather Kush
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 7:09 pm

Nvidia's "Beta" drivers are almost always release versions that haven't yet got WHQL status.
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Keeley Stevens
 
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Post » Tue May 29, 2012 2:12 am

I'm not going to stick up for Bethesda as there are certainly issues that testing should have revealed. However, the major problem that I - and many others - have only becomes serious once you have played for a LONG time, so it is somewhat less likely to have been flagged by "routine" testing. I sincerely hope that the upcomming patch fixes it!

If I remember correctly, this "bloat issue" was present in Oblivion as well. Since Skyrim has essentially the same "foundation" so to speak I would have thought that Bethesda would have addressed it by now?
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Jessica Stokes
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 5:02 pm

I don't know about that but my first (of 3) playthrough of Oblivion was 160 hours with no serious issues.
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Alisha Clarke
 
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