I said this to Alex in the other thread:

Don't plan before you know the specs of the engine or the tool kit.

Bethesda didn't need the functionality, or else worked around it somehow, and ultimately the CK was made for Bethesda rather than for you or for me. Does it hinder some modders? Yes, it does. But I don't think that it's wholly Bethesda's fault, and almost none of their responsibility. Out of all the bugs and annoyances the new kit has, not including a function that Beth didn't need isn't really a solid complaint in my book. I understand being upset at your plans failing (every single one of mine has), but that's a fault of your plans at least as much as it is of the kit.

Car anology time: You buy a Honda, and are upset when you can't use it to win at Nascar.

Missing the point that the CS did this. The CK doesnt. Having driven the Honda and not had it stall for years, it would be a surprise to buy another and find the darn thing can only get half way up the street before stalling, and then does a hundred yards, stalls, the windows wont wind up, the fan blows cold when it set on hot but the stereo is much better, the seats are a lot softer and its better on petrol.

There are plenty of things Oblivion did and Skyrim doesn't.

In the forums I see about 35% of the threads started by people who are getting into modding for the first time
I see about 45% of the threads saying the same thing (people don't search).
and the remainder is people with syntax problems in their scripts.

And it's driving a 95 civic, then buying a new car that has a ton of bells and whistles, but then claiming that the 95 civic is much better than the 2011 Escalade when you find out that the mileage svcks.

Not the best anology I admit but you can still mod without worldspace generation. I'm making my own worldspace without a heightmap editor.


EDIT And you seem to have 0 experience with the GECK.

Errr...so are you complaining about technical problems, lack of new features, old features not working as expected or all of the afore mentioned?

Another happy customer then folks. Clearly its not just a couple of us who are annoyed. Anything else people find works brilliantly that they would like to tell us all is fine, we're just moaning unneccesarily.

Look, if things work for some of you and are even better, then fantastic, I look forward to playing your mods. I know how it would feel to find these wouldnt work, so yes I am pleased.
But can we who find pretty basic worldspace functions that were present in the CS, are now present but broken in the CK be allowed to be annoyed about this or just we just shrug and say, Oh well why should we expect these things to work?

By now, the entire forum knows of your discontent about the lack of worldspace functions. You've posted about it in every thread of slight relevance.

Day 2 of trying to learn scripting.

The new scripting language is probably the greatest thing ever to grace a video game if you are an educated/experienced programmer.

If you've never done anything outside of game scripts though, it'll probably be a nightmare to learn.

No you miss the point, the whole idea is to raise issues in the hope that they are addressed. Do you complain when your meal is cold or do you just say, "My fault for ordering that one."

At which point you're getting personal and unpleasant. I naively thought we were having a discussion but clearly youre easily kindled.

I agree. Awareness is the answer, but there's a way to do it without bashing. Maybe I'm misinterpreting you as it can easily happen over the internet - but it sounds like you're throwing the whole CK out the door, because of something you have assumed and planned for.

Have you use the GECK?


Not at all.

Because my dear man, you were never promised or entitled to what you want. This is a tool used for a project that did not require world spaces and height maps. This tool was given to the public as is. You have no right to be upset because a tool not build for you but for the developers at Bethesda does not suit your needs. There are other alternatives like SkyEdit being developed which might at some point have what you need. This tool however was given as is.

Car anology time: You find an add in the news paper advertising a car of unknown capabilities, make or model. The description says it was used to travel to work and back for the last 10 years but not much more than that. You buy it in the hopes that you can start a career as a successful drag racer only to find out that it lacks nitrous and turbos and what not and you get upset because not long ago you had a similar car that did have all these extras in.

This is my issue right now :S I can see the usefulness of the new Language, but it is leaving me a bit baffled at the moment... I know I am not the best Scripter in the world, but with Oblivion's Script Language, I at least felt like I could work anything out if I needed to; with this, it's like being lost at sea... Hopefully though I will pick it up, and there's people here who obviously know what they're doing

The only reason MERP can continue for now despite the broken CK worldspace tools, is because we did plan and prepare in advance as best as we could for almost a year (gathering knowledge and doing as much work as possible in advance with third party tools). If we hadn't planned and prepared, we would finally have gotten up to speed in 2013 or so, if not later.

I would like to stretch the 3 main windows to full screen. Is there keyboard shortcuts for switching between them?

The third party tools is the keyword in your post - you did preproduction in a way that was largely independent from the capabilities of the game. Where other people (including myself!) ran into trouble is with planing for features that we now know don't exist. For example, if Skyrim for some reason didn't feature worldspaces at all, MERP would also be screwed. As would someone who wanted to make a new race if new races weren't supported, etc. We had an idea of what the kit and the game would be capable of, but we didn't know for certain, so any planing was bound to get at least partially thrown of.

Hang on, back up here. Are you all saying that we cannot build world spaces as we did with the CS? That section is too bugged?

This quote has always served me well. Transliterated...

You can build worldspaces, but you will need to rely heavily on third party tools to pull it off. Unless the heightmap editor gets repaired in a patch.

You cannot build large worldspaces. You can still make one and go into the render window and use the landscaping tool to shape the land, but large worldspaces (requiring heightmaps and the like) are going to be a thousand times harder to do because Bethesda seems to have broken some of the most basic functionality we require...

Worldspaces are fine. Height maps and LOD are bugged.

Do you figure this is a genuine bug or an intentional 'break' in the same way that lipsyncing was 'broken' in the GECK due to licensing issues with the technology (IIRC?).

I hope the first, obviously.

It's slow to load the game data, still has the annoying tree view (I prefer the tabs of MWs CS). Loading cells is slooow too, you need a large resolution to get all the windows to fit. Feels like to me I need more higher spec PC to use the editor, while the game plays find.

It is very confusing, coming mainly from the MW CS, but that's just because it's new and well the engine does ever so much more then MWs engine. I did manage in OB to make a number of mods quite quickly, but I'm pretty lost at the moment, and I think I won't be modding skyrim that heavily.

I feel the overall interface could have been better designed. I doubt very much this interface was the one the devs used. This one is written for us modders.


Been looking at the levelled lists, and creatures. Don't think I can even work out how to make a creature mod, things are not making sense yet, and the levelled lists are pretty nested, all over the place, and annoyingly long ID names.
So, I can at least make one mod to revise the levelled lists so that loot/containers are more interesting and make more sense. Repricing items based on availablity of raw goods, and the final products stats looks like it will be a nightmare, especially due to the massive nested lists. It's not easy to see what is used where, and how often. I think I'll just make my own lists, and replace containers vanilla list entries with my ones

Well the heightmap editor in the GECK had some issues, but it could at least import... I want to say it's most likely that something got updated (With the new engine), the inadvertantly broke this even further, as I don't see why they would break something THEY created to hinder us...

I just want them to fix importing and saving... That's all... That's all I want....

If I rotate the camera too fast buildings disappear until I reload the cell. Not even all static objects, just buildings and boats specifically, which is odd as rocks and such are fine yet they are still just static objects.

I'm loving it anyway, it is quite nice. Coming over from MW's CS is definitely a big change.

Also, I feel like a dope for having to ask but.. how exactly do you paint terrain with textures? On the Landscape Editor I can select a texture but I just have no idea how to apply it to terrain