This.

There are pure Lycanthropes, and those are the ones who are born werewolves. My female character, Vera, is a hereditary werewolf. By all means, I am sure she's pure because she comes from a cursed bloodline. I also think the half-blood scenario is annoying. For one, it ruins my RP experience. I've said it before and I'll say it again, ever since Oblivion, my vampire characters are pure freaking blooded! Not carrier

of a sixually transmitied disease . . . oh wait.

My first time posting on these threads ...so I haven't read anything -yet- so be kind if I'm repeating something.

I haven't finished reading your original post yet, but my initial thoughts as I go...

I'm up to volkihar. So far I really like everything you've put down. It makes total sense lore-wise and the ranks would make playing a vampire really interesting. I especially like how you regress if you slack on feeding.

On the Volkihar:
I would say make Snow Veil a normal cast and not a Once-Per-Day. Alter the stats of the power as needed, but as a player I think having it as either a normally cast spell or even a toggle power would give me that extra feeling that I'm becoming a force to be reckoned with.
Also...Master Volkihar, I'd suggest negating the sun damage completely for all your master vamp levels, and keeping the current H / M / S ding you take. I know, it sounds horrible...a vampire in the sun that's not taking constant damage...but I personally think Beth was on to something interesting with their debuff system. For me, it made venturing out in the day light more risky and exciting. ...and that's all the defense I'll say on that

Those are my two septims so far sir!

...i just read the Vampire Lord part. My thoughts.

I'm thinking that "Vampire Lord" could work well as a level above "Master".
For instance, it's not a set rank, so you don't "have to" become one. However, the option should be made available upon become a Master, via talking with some sort of trainer, and only available while at the Master rank. If you do choose to rise to the Lord rank, then you'll have to rise to that rank through feeding before gaining the "Lord Form" ability and of course maintain that rank through feeding. Also...I'd like to be able to feed on creatures and fresh kills please .

While I do agree with your work up, I'm also torn accepting it only because I actually really like how they currently have it set up. However, I suggested with Master that you negate the sun damage completely and go with the stat debuff...but now I'm thinking maybe leave it as is with Master, and negate the "natural" sun damage with Lord, and instead incur the stat debuff during the day. Perhaps also levy your debuff when silver or sun enchants/spells are used against you, and then double those if they're used against you during the day (outside, clearly).
To me, Vampire Lord form needs to feel as vicious and powerful as the Werewolf. Maybe your base character enhances some aspects of the form so that your Vampire Lord form will feel a tad differently depending on your base character build, but all in all no matter your build I think you should be able to use Melee and Magic more effectively than most, each powerful or viable in their own right (when not factoring in whatever bonuses your base build might bring).

I'd also like a "sneak" with kill cams. But these are just my thoughts.

Just finished the notes.

I like what you said about the followers and I completely agree. I'd also add that I'd like to be able to select and create my thralls as a Master Vampire, and perhaps create some sort of unique thrall as a Vampire Lord....like for instance entralling a merchant that you can use at any vampire rank, but creating that type of thrall is only available while a Vampire Lord.

Or, to throw another idea out there, perhaps your thralls as a Vampire Lord are permanent where otherwise they'd be temporary; and you can choose to have them live with you, acting as your 'minions', or you could order your minion to remain in their city and resume their normal habits. Alternately you could order your minions to go collect things, kill things (randomly or specific persons), go complete a particular miscellaneous mission you have outstanding ( ), or just follow you. I would like more minions.

I always thought that all vampires were pure-blooded. Until dawnguard came and now all vampires are half-blooded?

I was under the impression that pureblooded vampires were individuals born with vampirism, yet it also means they are directly turned my Molag Bal.

So, half-blood is a vampire bitten by a vampire turned by Molag Bal or being born from a vampire and a human pairing. Agronak must be halfblooded, too(I fully expect someone to jump in saying "oh but there's no evidence!11!"

So what does that make the major vampire clans? (Glenmoril wyrd, Volkihar, What-fangs, The order etc.) Would they be pure-blooded or would they be somewhat more purer than half-bloods?

They would be half-bloods, unless one or two of them were created by Molag Bal then all of them are half-bloods.

Depends. Most are infected and turned, thus making them "thin-blooded" for going down the line of other infected. I suppose the clans who value tradition and ancient knowledge, who knows who their creator and the progenitor of the vampire race is, would have purebloods within their stations. If the greatest honor is to be turned by Molag Bal himself, I expect some other clans to have purebloods, though not a lot.

So my vampire characters are going to be a mutt no matter what clan they choose. Bethesda. I just hope in the feature they give us the option to become pure-blooded.

Doing something like collecting 1000 innocent souls or getting [censored] could be impractical to put in the game. Maybe you could somehow steal pure blood. To me, it all looks like blood snobbery the pure bloods tell themselves so that they can remember the atrocities they committed or the degradation they underwent and convince themselves that it was worth it. And as a bonus, it gives you another excuse to be a dike to your progeny. Even if there aren't any pure blooded Whet Fangs, do they care if over vampires are?

Eh, RP a little. In my own story, my characters were still in their mother's womb when she underwent the degrading ritual, but they still had to prove themselves when older. Yes, it means either sixing it up with Bal or sacrificing a thousand souls.

I don't know how the whole sacrifice thing goes, but 1000 souls is a lot. Harkon did it because he was a ruler in those lands, and he might as well have subjugated men and women and children under his power. I do wonder if the individual responsible for the deaths of the thousand would still get blessed by Bal? A random thought just went in my head. It would be extremely hilarious if one of those sneaky vampires in the Empire just secretely prayed in their hidden shrines to Molag Bal(who is the Prince of Schemes and Corruption). Something like:

"Through my political astuteness and the connections with the High Council, Uriel V is one his way to conquer Akavir. The following souls who die in foreign lands I give to you in sacrifice . . .because through my smoothe tongue, unlimited resources, I have paved the way for these men and women of the Legion to join the Emperor's cause . . . which in the end, will be undoubtedly be futile."

This is entirely a thought. But does the sacrifice have to be personally done . . . or can it be accomplished through the actions of one individual? I just don't see any other pureblooded vampire of any clan going on massive rampages to get souls for Bal.

From Kodlak's journal:
"Fortune smiles upon us. Yesterday, Vilkas was telling me how difficult it had been for him to give up his transformations. Until we can pursue a true cure, the twins and I have chosen not to give in to the beastblood. For me, it's provided a clearer head, but Vilkas seems to be suffering a bit for it. Farkas seems completely untroubled. That boy continues to amaze with his fortitude."
They were able to give up their transformations, which they wouldn't have been able to do if they had forced transformations.

Also later on, it says:
"It's apparent to me now that Terrfyg's choice to turn us was indeed a mistake. Magics and their ilk are not in keeping with the spirit of the Companions."
So they were changed by something magical, not through being infected.

A quest in Daggerfall actually deals with this. There's a wereboar who's refusing to hunt and kill, and you get sent to kill him as punishment for it.

Though previous games had you giving your lycanthropy to someone else as a way to rid yourself of it (through magic in Bloodmoon, or by giving your beastblood to a latent lycanthrope's in Daggerfall). Doesn't really say one way or the other about extra spirits, but it doesn't discount it either.

Unless, given he had satiated his need to hunt, he changed back before they found him.

We know that Werebeast can reproduce and that children and later generations can inherit the disease but whether they are different in any way is unknown. But just like Vampires, the "Pure Blood" title is probably just that, a title. The "pure Blood" Vampires didn't seem any more special than the other Vampires. The fact that Harcon and presumably the others could pass on the Vampire Lord power is proof of this to me. Also in the context of this world, the diseases are just that, diseases. They were created by Daedra for specific purposes and have much power behind them but I fail to see why one method of infection would create a different result from another. That may be how it works in some other media concerning Vampires and Werewolves but it has no basis in TES.


We do not know how long they have been trying to avoid their transformations. It could have been only for a week so we have no idea how they were/could have dealt with the fact that Werebeast lose health when they do not kill or if they were successful in resisting the full moon. If that were the case it seems to me that that would have been an important point to put inside his journal. And Kodlak could be referring to the transformations in which they have a choice in, accepting the moonlit transformations and bloodlust as a necessity of their existence.

Kodlak was not there when Terrfyg met the Glenmoril Witches. He has no idea how things went down and the notion he puts forward, that the Witches evoked evil magic, is classic Nord prejudice against Witches and magic in general which has been a well established theme in the series.

We also have no idea what happened between the Wereboar and Hircine. It could have been similar to Sinding's story and situation. If the Wereboar was indeed not hunting then it would have experienced the same consequences as the PC while infected in Daggerfall. This was clearly not the case or whatever happened between Hircine and the Wereboar was enough so that Hircine didn't care to let nature take it's course.

I cannot disprove the spirit theory and admit to any possibility. The Lycanthropic diseases have always been presented as just that, diseases. To me, the idea that there are also beast spirits in the package comes completly out of the blue because before Skyrim there was no such notion. And they are present only in one single quest and then a result of an artifact that no one has ever mentioned before. And it has been hinted at for a while that Werebeast could control themselves. If anything the Companions and Sinding confirm this making the idea that beast spirits take over redundant in my opinion.

It would be nice if Kodlak dated his journal. But still, that he said "give up his transformations" doesn't imply to me "except those we're still forced into". If they were still forced to change, I'd have expected him to note it, and in particular comment on how it affects him given that he also says it "provided a clearer head" (in other words, wouldn't he say how forced transformations would affect his "clearer head"?).

I'm not saying you're wrong here, but I personally find it unlikely. His journal makes it sound like they willingly stopped changing altogether, not that they only stopped except when still forced to. There's also no mention of a werebeast being able to resist changing under the full moon without Hircine's Ring, that I know of.

He knew enough to know Terrfyg had been tricked by the Glenmoril Witches, and that the power his group originally got was supposed to be temporary. Being that this all only started a couple hundred years ago, that would actually place it around the time of Arena/Daggerfall/Morrowind/Oblivion, so it's not unreasonable to think Terrfyg kept records of what happened.

Something I would like to know, though, is if Terrfyg had been tricked into permanently having lycanthropy, why would the Circle then make it a requirement? If they were tricked into keeping something they only wanted for a short time, why require it for new members of the Circle? The only answer I can think of is because they still had control over it. It was still a useful power and the drawbacks were minimal given what their honor called for. But honestly that's not a fully satisfactory answer.

In Daggerfall you wouldn't die from not hunting. You just got your max HP reduced until you killed an innocent person.

Sanies Lupinus is more like a standard disease. It just makes you a bit weaker and can be cured using standard methods. But once it progresses to Lycanthropy, its nature becomes much more divine. Not only does it do something no other common disease can, it can't be cured by any common means and it changes your spirit to be more aligned with Hircine. Once you have Lycanthropy, it's not a normal disease anymore.

I'm not so sure it's that a beast spirit "takes over", more than it affects your nature by asserting influence over it. Your original spirit defines who you are, then the beast spirit comes in and changes you. The beast spirit links itself with your original spirit, giving you the need and instinct to hunt, kill, etc. At times those needs flare up, and other times they're more subdued.

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/12687

There seem to be quite a few people who think that http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1417853-skyrim-too-easy-2/. When I think of vampires, I don't meagrely think of the undead legends. There are also those afflicted with genetic diseases which impose some or all of the weaknesses of the vampire with none of the strengths (e.g. porphyria, pernicious anaemia, etc.). "Living Vampires" who could never be "real" or undead vampires could make a graceful race of outcasts that vampire hunters confuse with their undead counterparts. In addition to vampire penalties, "living vampires" would take area/environment damage for as long as they are in a tavern due to the garlic in the cooking fumes, they must regularly eat certain rare plant parts (e.g. fennel fronds, sage tips, etc.) or get very sick (i.e. effectively crippled) and would be partial to small amounts of sabre-cat meat but have to treat other meats with caution and extensive preparation and have no stomach for any white meat - no matter how meticulously prepared. They would avoid regular communities due to their sensitivities but be sought out because their condition forces them to become master herbalists (either that or die very young from anaphylaxis, thyroid storm or one of the many acute biochemical imbalances to which they are prone).
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For the purpose of role-play, the focus of such people as "living vampires" would be on what is good for the person and would be somewhat at odds with what the more predatory undead tend to do. They would hate the undead vampires for what they do to the living and resent the vampire hunters for being idiots. In the eyes of the "living vampires", vampire-hunters are just as drunk on blood-lust as those they hunt. The main campaign issue for a character in the role of a "living vampire" would be finding sources of the herbs necessary to stay alive, and establishing a low profile base of operations which is also defensible. After all, they are hunted by vampire hunters and authorities tend to look the other way as long as the vampire hunters are winning.
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Anyway, something like this would offer a new range of role-play as well as a whole new array of difficulty-levels that are all well beyond Master difficulty. The idea would be to make it impossible for a character of this race to survive the Skyrim environment without exploiting the skill increases and perk-trees to the max and, thereby, introduce a special challenge for those who want it.

I'm still hoping for a Werecreature revamp for a later DLC.

Me too, but I doubt it will happen, maybe they will get them right in the next game.

I think there's a slight chance if they add werebears, since the only werecreatures in the game are from a pact with the glenmoril witches.

Well, Dawnguard apparently added wild werewolves, but due to silliness, you can't contract the disease from them.

I'm slightly editing the OP to add a more extreme penalty to the silver equipment for Lycanthropes.

Well that's the thing, they are wild werewolves. If they add player Werebears they will need a reason to be able to become one. It better not be another witch pact though or I'll be pissed

Reason to become one? I think for a lot of people being able to turn into a friggen bear is reason enough. I certainly don't feel the need for them to add a faction for werebears or anything like that. If they do, that's cool. If not, I won't lose sleep over it.

I just hope that they'd make them at least slightly different than werewolves (hence, at least part of the reason for this thread).

And I do hope they patch the werewolves to allow them to infect you properly so you don't have to put up with the Companions. Really destroys RPing a physically unimposing mage blessed/cursed with Lycanthropy when you have to go through the Companions to get the condition.

I meant that Bethesda will need a lore reason to have them, and if it's another witch Pact I'm gonna be mad.

The lore is already there. Werebears are supposed to be a major nuisance in Skyrim. There's really nothing in game aside from a few books talking about certain individuals being unable to find them and a joke by M'aiq that addresses their absence in the first place, so I really don't think they need to come up with a lore reason. They'd just be correcting a past mistake/oversight/whatever you want to call it.