Which would you see as the better choice for New Vegas, just between these two?

Mr. House promises:

-Stability
-A means to better defend Vegas from foreign invaders (I don't think anyone would argue that a computer defense system that can be controlled by an intelligent human is inferior to a computer defense system working on it's own)
-A smart, level-headed leader capable of recognizing and dealing with problems
-Progress, at least at a faster rate than what would be achieved without Mr. House


Independent Vegas promises:

-Freedom
-Liberty
-Privacy
-All kinds of possibilities for all kinds of people, and not just the rich and fortunate.



You can basically assume that the pros of one are the cons of the other.

So which do people feel is the better choice for Vegas? (And I don't wanna hear a word about the NCR or the Legion)

Assuming your courier isn't evil of course, Independent Vegas is a pretty good deal.


However I doubt the morality of the general player...

Mr. House has waited a long time (200 years) for his dream to come true. Plus he wants to put people on the moon!

Also, House pretty much offers freedom and privacy. 'Nor do I care to legislate or otherwise dictate what people do in their private time'

House would treat the casinos as they always were, business. What people do when they are off the clock is not his concern, permitting they arent crossing House's intents.

Got to be House, he knows what he's doing while the courier doesn't have a clue. House is actually better for the immediate Vegas region than NCR is, I just dont back him because he's not the best choice for places OUTSIDE of Vegas, like the NCR states to the west.

You're forgetting though Apex, House controls the Vegas region alone. He has no interest in anything outside it. So everything from Vegas to the Mojave Outpost are his, but he isnt going to expand. I like it that way, that was NCR's biggest fault, grabbing what it can't properly hold. (Not trying to start a debate, i'm just saying NCR tends to bite a bit more than it can chew.)

No I understand that martyr, but that's kinda what I mean, I'm thinking about who the best choice is for the most people. If I was just thinking about the immediate Vegas area then yeah House would be the best choice hands down, but I'm thinking in terms of how can Vegas be used to help the most people over the biggest area, and that's one of my reasons for going with the NCR.

And yeah I agree please no more debates right now.

Yeah I agree there. If everyone regulated themselves and kept to themselves, there'd be less war. The desire to expand is one of the main causes of war. In that sense, I think House is good for both the NCR and Vegas. He gives the NCR a bop on the nose and makes them rethink their plans to expand and Vegas isn't led by some war-mongering jerk. If each area were run differently and kept to itself, it would give people options of how they'd like to live. Yeah ok, they'd have to do a lot of walking to reach their choice, but it's better than nothing, right?


I think one of the biggest issues for me in this game is House. Like, if I look at the (very VERY little) info provided on him, I see no reason to hate him or fear him. I always feel like I'm missing something when the NPCs say "god I hate that damn House," because they never actually justify it. He demands control over Vegas and he demands cooperation from his "employees." Yeah ok, and? If tomorrow, some random dude forced himself into office as the new president, I'm sure we'd all be ticked. If after 4 years though, we figured out he was pretty level-headed...well then why would he deserve death?

And then there are characters like Arcade Gannon who're supposed to be the brightest of the brightest in the Mojave, and they opt for independent Vegas, saying House manipulates the locals etc. Yeah ok, House says "my way or the highway," but he's not asking much. He's putting the people back to work and it doesn't seem like he denies people work. Sarah asked for Vault 21 to be partly spared, he agreed when he realized it could be a hotel. She now works and lives there. Judging by the endings, Freeside will be taken over and become a part of the Strip, and I'm sure that will follow with "who wants to work for me?" While this does have it's gruesome downsides and Mr. House is capable of pulling some stupid BS moves (poor Kings. T_T ), he's giving everyone the option to comply and giving them the option to leave if they refuse to cooperate.
So how the hell can people like Arcade, who're so intelligent, say "oh hell yeah, we need the robots with missle launchers making decisions for themselves and no organization whatsoever. That's the best for Vegas." Am I missing something? I just have trouble demonizing him and it always makes me feel like House has skeletons in his closet and they're incredibly well hidden.

Because he kills BoS when independents can spare them.

Level-headed?! Laughable, man. Haha.

Within the context of this thread, Independent is the way to go. Down. With. House.

Why is killing them a bad thing exactly? Sparing them leads to them harrassing travellers for their technology.

House. House is predictable. You know what he's ultimately all about, everything he does is linked to making a profit, and he doesn't pretend otherwise. You can trust he won't necessarily oppress people, or muscle in on someone else's turf (like some of the OTHER factions), because for his enterprise, those aren't really profitable ventures. And in the process, he will bring a semblance of safety and security to the Mojave. He can be pretty ruthless when dealing with others, but if people won't listen to your words while holding the big stick, well, you have no choice but to use said stick. And he's up-front about his rules, which are in turn pretty lax, so you're not really going to be losing a lot of liberties anyway. He taxes heavily, but then, so does the NCR, but unlike them, he's more likely to keep his end of the bargain and keep you safe. And if you still don't like living under him, well, his territory is thankfully going to remain small.

Will his pet projects work? Doesn't matter. If they do, fantastic, humanity can see advancement, and make moves to get off this irradiated rock. If they don't, oh well, at least he'll have made many scientific discoveries in the process, and put a lot of people to work. Seems a win-win situation.

But most of all...House is just one man. If he ever oversteps his boundaries, in one way or another, he can be...dealt with. Pull the plug on him, raze the 38 to the ground, whatever. And the Courier is in the best position to keep him in check. The same can't be said for Yes-Man. As long as there are Securitrons, as long as that program that replicates him is there, he'll always exist, the only way to defeat him would be to effectively destroy Vegas and every last Securitron, and don't expect Vegas or the Mojave to keep its sovereignty for long should that happen.


I think what people take issue with is his hostile takeover of the Strip seven years prior. We do know that many people died in the process, and he has since been seen as a usurper and tyrant. They may have a point, but ultimately, yeah, I'm with you. What he did really isn't all that different than what warring tribes do anyway; he just happened to have the biggest baddest "tribe" of them all. But all accounts point to House being an "ask questions first, shoot later" kind of guy (provided he doesn't already know that you're irreconcilable, like a certain Brotherhood); he wants people to submit to his rule. If they don't, and they refuse to budge or respond with violence, well, he's gotta' enforce his claim. Personally, I think that's what happens to the Kings in most of the endings; House moves into Westside and makes his demands. And the Kings, being what they are, refuse and fight back, not knowing or caring that they're clearly outmatched.

The problem is the Anarchic attitude of the Followers in general. I love the Followers over all, but I won't deny they are incredibly nieve. However, one of my favorite things about siding with House, he's the only one of the three factions that won't kick the Followers from Vegas.

As to the Kings, I prefer to help them fight off NCR, while the relief effort thing does alot of good, it also gives NCR something Mr. House doesn't want, a foothold in Vegas. Plus, the Kings are arguably the 'police force' of Freeside. Plus, the people in Freeside have only themselves to blame since they are all people who refused to be employees of Mr. House.

In regards to the Brotherhood, to call them evil is the wrong word. However, they are so misguided in their self-righteousness that they feel it is their RIGHT to take whatever technology they deem 'inappropriate'. They aren't protecting humanity, as their arrogant ignorance claims, but rather, as House says, 'you don't see them carting away Auto-Docs or prosthetic organs.' No, they take weapons and power armor, and other dangerous tech. What do they do with said tech? They study it then they use it in the field. If they are 'saving humanity' they wouldn't be using those 'dangerous tools to be kept from humanity' against the humanity they are 'sworn to protect'. The Brotherhood by and large is nothing short of being a hypocritical militant group.

And this is exactly my problem. xD

People will gladly say "House svcks," but no one EVER gives reasoning or evidence behind their argument.

Tell me what doesn't make him level-headed.

After looking at a chart of data about a group who has never actually done him any harm, he decides that he's going to annihilate an entire faction. No diplomacy. No discussion. Just total destruction. Wholesale slaughter. Based on a [censored] Excel chart. So that he can have absolute control. He's single-minded, not level-headed. Or would you consider mass murder to be common sense?

And now, for kicks, here are some fun facts

Fun Fact # 1: House and BoS have no history of fighting. No bad blood there.

Fun Fact # 2: BoS and NCR fought bitterly. Lots of bad blood there.

Fun Fact # 3: You can arrange a truce between the BoS and NCR... ! :shocking:

Fun Fact # 4: House will not, under any circumstances, make any kind of peace/arrangement with the BoS.

House's hate and fear of the BoS is the most logical pre-emptive strike in the entire friggin' game. They're an organization that hordes powerful tech and will kill others who refuse to surrender their tech, and Mr. House is a guy hooked up to a machine, completely dependent on technology and practically technology himself, running a city through his handy-dandy army of robots. Are you telling me you wouldn't be wary of the BoS if you were in his shoes, or that you would actually see it as plausible if the BoS were willing to discuss a truce? I'd call BS if the devs actually included a way for Mr. House OR the BoS to be ok with one another.

And for the record, if Mr. House died of natural causes in this game and for some reason my only choice was independent vegas? I'd blow them up myself. They're completely dangerous. These are guys who'll take over have the Mojave if not killed/kept in check by the NCR and these are guys that stick an explosive collar on you the moment you say hello.

That's another thing I don't understand: people who are die-hard about defending the BoS. I'd love it if there were a peaceful way to solve things with the BoS too, but there isn't. If left unchecked, they take over Helios ONE and claim everything between I-15 and H95 as their own. Which btw, Helios is filled with innocent civilians as well as NCR troopers, and it's very likely that before they arrive to take it over, you've got it set up to provide power to the people of Vegas. So yeah, expect dead scientists and no more power for Westside, all because the BoS want the world's strongest lightbulb.

And let's put that in perspective, shall we? The BoS argue that in order to protect civilization from dangerous technology, they have to be kept away from it. Therefore, the BoS has taken it upon themselves to horde that technology for themselves, who they see as trustworthy. This doesn't happen of course, but let's pretend for a moment that they're peaceful lads who do use the tech for good and don't just bully people for their tech. Now, why the HELL are they retaking Helios ONE? Why the hell are they hell bent on holding Helios One? Why do they want Helios ONE's weapon? They can simply set Helios ONE to only provide energy, and ta-da: the deadly weapon IS GONE. Isn't that what they want? Deadly technology out of the hands of people so they can't hurt themselves? Providing Vegas with energy would accomplish that; it's an absolute win-win. And yet, they don't do that, do they? No, they're hell-bent on re-awakening that weapon. They have to have it. They have a choice between simply getting rid of it or letting that weapon continue to exist, and what do they do? They choose the latter, completely against their own purpose because they're so blinded by greed.


If you wanna convince me House is a bad guy, try using a more innocent group as an example, like the Kings. Saying House was mean to the BoS is like saying Joshua Graham was mean to the White Legs, or NCR was mean to the Legion.

#1 and 2: House is a guy who looks at what he knows, from history to current events, to calculate how people are most likely going to act in the future and any given situation. Here's a history lesson about the Brotherhood: they existed alongside the NCR independently for a long time. Eventually, at some point, they decided to start taking "forbidden technology" from the NCR. Next thing you know, the two factions are at war. And though the Brotherhood have more or less lost it, they never really surrendered or sued for peace, its members simply hid to lick their wounds. If such "humbling" experiences were not enough to get them to change their ways, then there's little to suggest they ever will, and all signs point to the Brotherhood easily going back to their old ways. And if left unchecked, they could very well end up going to war against Vegas for the same reason they warred with NCR. House would be a fool not to realize history could very well repeat itself.

#3: The truce between the Brotherhood and NCR isn't easy to come by. Moore orders you to wipe them out, no ifs, ands, or buts. The only way to arrange for a truce is to go over her head. Meanwhile, on the Brotherhood side of things, a truce can only be made if McNamara is the Elder; he's the most liberally-minded in Hidden Valley, he's the exception, not the rule. If Hardin's in charge, then no arrangement can be made. And even if a truce is set, don't expect everyone in the NCR to agree with you (you get infamy after all). Ultimately, the two are able to reach a peaceful agreement, but NCR has to turn over the "forbidden" tech (such as salvaged powered armor). Which means that...

#4: House will not make any kind of peace or arrangement with the Brotherhood because no long term peace or arrangement can be made. As Longknife said, should they survive, the Brotherhood takes over the roads, Helios 1, and seizes "forbidden technology" from travelers. They're thieves and highwaymen in shiny armor, a nuisance and bad for business. And worse, they're an armed force in House's turf who will never submit to his authority. In order to prevent any war from breaking out (which, because he relies on an army of robots, which could very well classify as "forbidden", is inevitable) he would have to expend additional resources just to keep them in check. So no, in the end, from all standpoints, political, sociological , and economical, it's more efficient in the long run to remove the Brotherhood.

You might not like that House uses an "Excel spreadsheet" to make his decisions...but his logic is always sound, no matter how cold and impersonal it is, and he's seldom ever wrong.

House is never wrong. You get to see just how blinkered the BoS view of the world is when you do V's quest.
Even if House 'let' you make a truce with the BoS, how long would it be before the inevitable happened and the brotherhood started trying to dictate which technology House could have.

(Also the botherhood have indeed reduced quite a few securitrons to scrap. It's stated in game by house himself, thats how he knows where they are)

So, let's just be clear about this:

What everybody is basically saying is that House's decision to commit mass murder is totally, without question, a level-headed one.

If you all believe that, cool. But I don't.

I was asked why I felt he was not level-headed. I gave my answer.

If you consider eliminating a very real and dangerous threat Mass Murder, the NCR must be utter demons for their war with the Legion, since both sides are killing large quantities of troops.

There is a difference between Mass Murder and Tactical Maneuver. Look at New Vegas in a chessboard anology. The BoS is by and large one of the more dangerous pieces on the board. Had House murdered the followers, then yes, that's mass murder. Yet, notice how House is the only one of the three factions who let the BoS continue to reside in Freeside peacefully and unhindered.

Edit: The problem we have is that your using selective words to trump up the situation. House's spite for the Brotherhood is their ineptitude at peaceful negotiations. The Brotherhood could tolerate NCR because they are 'weaker' in technology than House. The Brotherhood is that kid on the playground who likes to show off his shiny new toy. If any of the other kids comes around with a nicer and shinier toy, the BoS turns into a bully and will intimidate you into giving your toy up or you kick the bully's rear end.

Lemme put it this way.

Normally, when I hear someone say "pre-emptive strike," I think "BS, you just don't wanna admit you're the evil invader."

This is the first example I've ever seen where I legitimately believe it's truly a pre-emptive strike, and not an excuse to invade. House has no reason to hold a grudge against the BoS and nothing to gain from destroying them. He's not asking you to secure their technology for him and he's not interested in their "land." He just fears for himself and his city, and rightfully so.




Or I could put it this way:

What is the difference between you, the player, deciding to wipe out Cottonwood Cove, kill off Caesar or side with Joshua Graham to wipe out the White Legs and House deciding to wipe out the Brotherhood? If you would answer "I would never wipe out any of those groups," then alright, fair enough. If you would however see reason to wipe out one of those groups, then I dunno how you can argue that House is so evil for wiping out the BoS.

And lemme just bring my point back up again: this is a group that claims to be dedicated to keeping mankind from finding and re-using dangerous technology by hording it, all in an effort to protect mankind from itself. And yet when faced with the decision of arming ARCHIMEDES II or providing Vegas with extra energy at the cost of ARCHIMEDES II never being armed and thus never being useable as a weapon by anyone PERIOD, they try to arm ARCHIMEDES II.

....THIS is the group you wanna kill House for?

I beg to differ. "After the NCR's victory at the dam, in part thanks to Follower's medical support, NCR allowed the Followers to care for refugees as they see fit. Old Mormon Fort expanded its services and was able to aid more people, becoming a refuge for the less fortunate citizens of New Vegas."

We don't know if this ending was cut or if it's just bugged. So maybe, maybe not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEX-d0yuxGk&feature=channel_video_title

2:23 So yes it is in the game just waiting for the devs to fix the stuff that's actually messed up rather then just changing weapon and armor stats.

There's also snippets of NPC dialog AFTER the Battle of Hoover Dam etc that are present in the game files, though clearly cut content and not canon.