I don't want this to sound rude, but It's really not my math's fault if you go with an inferior build. When the AM-Rifle and Gobi are both properly spec'd, gobi is better.

When you reach level 24+ chosen good perks, have all weapon mods and converted your ammo energy weapons are better than guns imo, with choice of companion it gets better..
First game sneak crits with fully modded sniper rifle against death claw dens I felt it was a 75 / 25 fight to me, much less if they got close.
Second game plasma weapons multiplas for the cave maxed cells not one hit against me no companions, second fight the quarry plasma caster maxed cells boone with a sniper rifle no sneaking no hits on me about a minute and a half to clear the area.
So nope I don't want to rant against energy weapons.

Sorry you feel your build is superior. Me, i like how i have it, i dont need 10 luck to kill things, i just shoot them.

If I remember correctly critical hits are mitigated by DT if weapon damage alone wasnt enough to penetrate targets DT. Examples:


DT of enemy: 30
Better Criticals (critical hit damage bonus x1.5)
Sneak attack crit (2x damage)
Overcharged ammo (+25% damage)
Lord Death rank 3 (+4% damage)



Plasma Caster:

Base damage: 65
Crit hit damage bonus: 65

(65 + 65 x 1.5 - 30) x 1.25 x 1.04 x 2 = 344.5 damage

The DT is only subracted once per attack so because plasma casters base damage of 65 manages to penetrate enemys DT you could say that critical hit damage bonus ignored DT.




Gatling laser with weapon mod giving + 3 damage:

Base damage: 7 + 3 from mod = 10
Crit hit damage bonus: 7

(10 + 7 x 1.5 -30) x 1.25 x 1.04 x 2 = 10.66

The reason why I got 10.66 (if im using the correct formula) is found within the brackets.

10 + 7 x 1.5 = 20.5 is lower than the targets DT of 30 which mean that the damage dealt wasnt enough to pierce through the DT. In this situation the game will let 20% of the damage done before DT is factored in through which is 20.5 x 0.2 = 4.1 and use that value for the rest of the damage calculation as follows:

4.1 x 1.25 x 1.04 x 2 = 10.66

In this example not even the added crit damage was enough to pierce through the targets DT and therefor the game only let 20% of the damage through before % modifications.



Plasma Pistol:

Base Damage: 22
Crit damage bonus: 22

(22 + 22 x 1.5 - 30) x 1.25 x 1.04 x 2 = 65

Here the added critical hit damage bonus was enough to sort of push the base damage to overcome the targets DT and SOME of the critical hit bonus was used up for that so to speak. As clarification:

Normal ammo
No perks


Normal crit

(22 + 22 - 30) = 14


Normal hit

(22 - 30) = 4.4 because damage not enough to penetrate DT -> 20% of 22 used = 4.4


Here we see that doing a critical hit didnt increase the damage by 22 because some of that added damage was used to overcome the targets DT -> damage done with crit 14 instead of 26.4





I know that the formulas and whatnot are used a bit incorrectly because I couldnt think of a way to incorporate all the damage vs DT checks and what the game does in which situations into the formulas.

Again, Im not 100% if these formulas are correct as I got them from these forums some days ago and havent done that much ingame testing on them.

Honestly I'm not sure either Kroo. The way I remember it when I looked at it back in FO3 is that the critical damage was simply applied on top of whatever damage was left over after DR, basically whatever damage would have been dealt on a non-crit. I have not extensively tested it in NV.

One thing to mention though is that ammo that applies a DAM modifier (like magnum buckshot, overcharge, etc) multiplies both base and critical damage. I've tested that. It makes overcharge/max charge ridiculously powerful.

It's not about what I feel, it's about the math. You can't say, "Well, the AMR is better because it's better for me." This is not a rational argument. Mathematically, Gobi is sickly way more powerful than the AMR. It's no contest.

I don't deny this. It is pretty much required to use max charge ammo. Even still, when I listed all of my beefs about energy weapons many posts ago, and when I gave my lists of best weapons, that is actually factoring in max charge ammo. So even though you have max charge ammo, guns are STILL better.

So basically you are spending way more caps repairing your weapons and on ammo for no benefit. In the end, Gobi fires at 6 caps a shot, which is better than anything EW has to offer.

The closest thing is the Plasma Caster with max charge ammo, which is 7.5 caps a shot.

Everything else is much more expensive. YCS/186 is 30 caps (not bad for what you get... still 4x more than AMR), Multiplas Rifle is 45 caps. Pew Pew is 75 caps. Need I continue?

I agree, I absolutely hate energy weapons in this game, I also don't like the fact that every time I crit. something it leaves a permanent good pile/ash pile. The only reason I use the unique Plasma Rifle is because normal Guns look terrible with Remnants Power Armour. :ahhh:

I have to agree that the majority of energy weapons are pretty weak.
Meltdown makes them fairly strong, but even with Meltdown, the Plasma Caster, Plasma Defender, Laser RCW, and Gauss Rifle are pretty much the only ones you want to consider using.

The issue isn't even that energy weapons are bad, it's that EVERY OTHER form of weapon is way better.

It's also important to note that the Laser/Plasma rifles are balanced to be entry-level weapons for the Energy Weapons skill, much like the 9 Iron and the Varmint Rifle. However, you get Energy Weapons at around the same time as GREAT guns such as the Marskman Carbine; you get the "entry level" energy weapons at the same time as much better guns and melee weapons.

In short;
Energy weapons are weaker compared to other weapons of the same level, and have less access to ammo that is more expensive.

I get the feeling you're putting me on maybe the "other side" of your argument and I'm not really. I'm not here to say EW is better than Guns, or the other way around.

I just feel like the gap between the two is smaller than is being played up. I played through both on VH/H and EW did not feel weak by any stretch. The Q-35 was more than adequate as an all-purpose weapon, and anything bigger that doesn't get instantly blown apart by a YCS sneak crit (which even on VH amounts to little in this game) either got completely decimated by the Caster or got LOL'd by the Pulse Gun.

Repair is pretty easy in this game just for the fact that you can craft weapon repair kits, even if you aren't using Jury Rigging. Caps are probably not anybody's biggest concern. Ammo never felt limited, though I think I took Vigilant Recycler fairly early, maybe level 10 or something.

If there is any issue I took with EW, it certainly was not relative power late game. I'd say there probably needs to be more mid-level options; I am surprised pulse weapons only came back in the form of the one pistol, and that there's no gauss pistol variant. The Recharger weapons are terrible and I don't know if anyone would care if they weren't in the game.

Energy weapons are for a certain type of player and a certain type of character.

First of all, you'll need high luck and want to take perks that maximize your critical chance and improve your critical damage. Criticals are absolutely vital because of the tendency for energy weapons to have low DAM and trouble cutting through DT, especially the lower levels. You may also want to up your sneak so you can get some guaranteed crits in at the onset of battle.

Second, you'll need to be rich. Energy weapons are a rich man's weapon, especially in New Vegas due to the energy consumption issues you've described. Taking vigilant recycler negates this some, but you'll still need to buy ammo by the truckload.

But really, in New Vegas money is not a problem. Loot all the good stuff from your fallen enemies and sell it. Use your luck and break the bank at all the casinos. Since you don't use guns, sell them- they can be good money, especially when fully repaired.

Perks you will want for a viable energy weapons build:
Vigilant Recycler- obviously, it lets you make more ammo and saves you money.
Finesse- Helps your critical chance- very important. You might want to get Boone to give you a 1st Recon beret too, as it also boosts crit chance.
Plasma Spaz- if you like VATS and plasma weapons you would do well to take this. Combine it with jet, ultrajet, dixon jet, rocket, and Action boy and you can send walls of VATS plasma at your enemy.
Pyromaniac- Essential for your Flamer/Incinerator. Even the TC agrees.
Jury Rigging- despite TC's claims of it being overpowered, I think it's just convenient. It's not like it doesn't have a high skill requirement or anything- it's perfectly balanced for the investment you need to get it.
Better Criticals- When you crit, you'll crit harder, and slice through that DT.
Meltdown- the real powerhouse of the perks- very useful against multiple enemies. Killing one mob of scorpions with your plasma caster all of a sudden results in every last one becoming a pile of goo. Very nice.
Laser Commander- extra damage, extra crit chance, combined with the other perks this makes weapons like the laser rifle more viable, especially if you put a scope on it and use it to snipe.

I'm not saying you can't win with energy weapons, I am just saying it is unbalanced.

The real question.... why SHOULD you have to pay more for the same or less damage? You shouldn't. I mean really, what does the energy user get in exchange? Nothing from what I can tell.

Also, while you CAN win with energy weapons, it's just easier with guns. Everything is better. Every costs less. Everything is more versatile. Everything does more damage.

The problem is not ability to win or not. The problem is balance.

Compare the Q-35 to the All-American; it's an utter joke. The AA has dramatically better ammo capacity, damage, DPS, accuracy, projectile speed, and cheaper ammo.

Hell, the plain Marksman Carbine is better than the Q35. The Q35 is what the BASE plasma rifle should have been, at a minimum.

@ Enduring Protectron-It's exactly the fact that you need to pray for crits and have a ton of money to buy ammo that makes Energy Weapons weak. Guns don't have either of these problems, and neither do Melee Weapons or Unarmed.

Amen.

This is exactly the kind of hyperbole that I'm talking about.

Not everything is better. There's nothing in the game that delivers the single shot damage of the YCS. The Plasma Caster in terms of raw DPS is beaten by very few weapons. When you have caps to burn, there's little reason NOT to run around with that combo and just maul everything in the game. Quite frankly, I've yet to have a play through where I don't have caps to burn very, very early on.

Guns is more versatile, I wouldn't argue against it other than the fact that it feels easier to manipulate EW ammo sources at a workbench. I also agree that the game is unbalanced when it comes to the progression of weapons in the Guns category compared to the progression in the EW category.

I'm just pointing out that people act like there is a massive gulf there. You want to talk about a massive gulf in balance, go look at the Explosives skill. That is imbalanced enough to write a ten page thread about.

The balance discrepancies between Guns and EW lies almost entirely in the mid-game.

Yes, the YCS/Gauss Rifle and the Plasma Caster are very good weapons overall. No one's debating that.
The crux of the issue is that nearly every other energy weapon is flat-out significantly worse than its Guns counterpart, and often accessible later in the game with more expensive and rarer ammo. There really is a massive gulf there. Again, compare the Plasma Rifle and the Laser Rifle to the Marksman Carbine and tell me that there isn't a huge difference in performance.

Explosives needs help too, but that's not the point of this thread; we are discussing Energy Weapons in comparison to its much more powerful counterparts.

Actually, I've been doing some tests and I may have a gem that I wasn't aware of: Tri-Beam Laser Rifle

I've been doing some hard VATS calculations, and for some reason I just ignored it (stupid me, not being objective). I think the reason I ignored it was that it had bad critical damage even despite it's multiplier. It turns out, this doesn't matter.

If my calculations are right, Tri-Beam Laser Rifle using Max Charge ammo with the Finesse perk, Better Criticals perk, 10 luck and Laser Commander will deal 162.75 normal damage 47.5% of the time, and 406.88 damage 52.5% of the time in VATS. The crit chance is slightly lower out of VATS because it gets an extra 7.5% in VATS mode due to the 1.5x critical multiplier. Still, that crit damage is insanely good with max charge ammo.

Anyway, this weapon only requires 23 AP to use in VATS, which is way better than Gobi. If your character had 125 AP (a fair assumption, more or less), you'll get 5 attacks rather than 3.

2.375 of those 5 attacks will deal 386.53 damage on average
2.625 of those 5 attacks will deal 1068.06 damage on average.

This totals for a whopping 1454.59 average damage over 5 attacks in VATS. In contrast, Gobi only deals 675 damage for it's first 3 attacks. So Tri-Beam Laser Rifle can basically do double the damage if it needs to expend all of it's AP. It also abuses Grim Reaper's Spirit better than Gobi does.

That's not the whole VATS picture, because if Tri-Beam Laser Rifle doesn't crit in a VATS attack, Gobi will actually do more damage. If you find yourself in situations where you need 225 damage per hit rather than 162.75 damage per hit, Gobi will probably still be better.

Nonetheless, this is encouraging information. And since it's coming from me, that says something.

EDIT: Made a mistake in my math. I forgot to add the 15% damage increase, so actually Tri-Beam Laser Rifle will deal 1579.26 damage instead of 1454.59. Sorry, my bad! Previously, I only accounted for the 10% critical chance boost.

Can you show some of your math as far as the base damage? Before MC ammo I thought the Tri-Beam only did like ~60 DAM (20 x 3) after Laser Commander. MC would bring that to ~105... what am I not thinking of?

LOL, I knew it was too good to be true. LOL

I accidentally copied 93 DPS into the base damage column rather than 52 Damage. Man I feel stupid.

Thanks for spotting that!

Thought that sounded too good to be true. Off the top of my head I think the best VATS damage per-round I remember was the Plasma Caster. Surprisingly the PC only takes 25 AP. Fast Shot/Math Wrath/Plasma Spaz is a pretty potent combo as far as VATS goes; even the Q-35 does pretty solid damage if you're crit stacking.

Okay, here's a vats chart:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/443421/vats.chart.png

This is somewhat surprising to me. I already knew Pew-Pew would range at the top of the list, but since it costs so damn much to use, I just sort of ignore it.

I was already well aware that Multiplas and Brush Gun were very close in the best of cases. I had already said so many times in this thread. I still think Brush Gun > Multiplas Rifle just because it's so much cheaper to use, and it's a far superior weapon when it comes to low spread, range, versatility, etc. Also, this chart only accounts for when multiplas crits on all 3 rounds of plasma. It's a bit difficult to do it for all 4 possibilities. So it's not #3 in practice. Brush Gun, This Machine and Gobi are still better IMO.

What is surprising though is that even with the correct numbers, Tri-Beam is still kicking strong at #2 on this list. I didn't expect that.

Everything else on this chart is not at all surprising to me, especially the results for Q-35, which is PRECISELY what I've been saying over and over. Here's the proof.

Is Better Criticals being included in that spreadsheet?

Yep. Finesse, Better Criticals, 10 Luck and 1st Recon Baret.

Also, cowboy and laser commander are assumed.

Wait, you said EW is hard to find. You must not be looking, i have found so many MFC and EC, it's not funny. In some places you get around 400 of them, for free like repcon headquarters (i think)

It doesn't look like Better Criticals is applied to the Q-35. 32 base, 62 crit @ 100 energy is 94 on a standard crit, MC puts that at ~140 which is what is listed as a crit damage shot. With Better Criticals it should be ~218.

Edit - Something is still totally wack with that Tri-Beam. I'll look at it real quick.