An itemized rant against energy weapons

Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:32 am

So there seems to be some staunch defenders of energy weapons who say that they are not weak, that they have not been nerfed, and that compared to Guns they are perfectly viable. Which to me is blatantly absurd. I shall now use an itemized list of every energy weapon in the game in a long-winded attempt to point out WHY they aren't that great. Unique weapons (those I have used anyway) are at the end. If you're the impatient sort: TL;DR = Some energy weapons rock. Most are very expensive junk. And you basically have to build your entire character around energy weapons use to make them competitive with (not surpass) Guns.

A side note: A strong contributing factor to the nerfyness of energy weapons is the fact that their ammunition is uncommon (you will have to buy most of what you use; and it's expensive), and there is no "benefits only" energy weapon ammo. You can break down gun cartridges and remake them into better flavors with only a small cost in materials: making high energy ammunition costs either 3 or 5 times more in resources for a damage increase coupled with rather serious maintenance problems. So the issue with Energy Weapons isn't only the weapons, it's what goes into them as well.

Energy weapons: Pistols

Plasma defender: Energy's alternative to the .44 Magnum. Except it isn't. It does a similar amount of damage, but is hard to use at long range, expensive to repair (unless you have the overpowered Jury Rigging), breaks fairly quickly, and consumes a painful 3 E-cells per shot. Becomes a moderately-to-highly powerful weapon if you use Max Charge ammo (several Guns do more damage, but none can match its cyclic rate), but now you're burning the equivalent of 15 E-cells per shot. One of the better all-around energy weapons which is just sad.

Plasma pistol: A total joke. Hard to hit with, and compared to a .357 pistol, does less damage while costing considerably more in ammo.

Laser pistol: Energy's equivalent to a 9mm pistol. It does less damage than the 9mm but not a huge amount less, and like all the laser weapons it has a good rate of fire and very high accuracy. This one is more of a tradeoff than a redheaded step child. Except for the ammo bill, which still involves paying quite a bit more than its tactical relative on the Guns side.

Energy weapons: Rifles

Gauss rifle: powerful, very long range. What's not to like? This is pretty much the poster child of energy weapons, and it is undeniably one of the better ones. But it's still rare, extremely inconvenient with the constant reloading, and while it packs more single-hit power than anything that doesn't blow up, it costs more to use and has less sustainable damage output than its tactical cousin the sniper rifle. Loaded with Max Charge ammo this is basically the answer to Deathclaws, for which you are spending the equivalent of 25 MF-cells per shot and good luck finding parts for this thing.

Laser RCW: Finally, an undeniably inarguably good energy weapon! This thing absolutely rocks... as long as you're shooting at something that doesn't have any armor. Fairly low damage per shot coupled to a blistering rate of fire and high accuracy, easy to get parts for, and it uses the cheap-and-cheerful ECW as ammo. Guns has the SMGs, but with their wild inaccuracy they just can't keep up. Plan on giving yours a name. You'll be seeing a lot of it.

Laser rifle: From the high to low. This weapon is literally pointless. The RCW does the same damage, weighs less, uses cheaper ammo, and shoots a hell of a lot faster. You can add a scope and some bling to the barrel, but why do you care about +3 damage when the RCW shoots cheaper ammo ten times faster.

Plasma rifle: From low to total joke. The Cowboy Repeater does a similar amount of damage, with longer effective range, cheaper ammo, common replacements, and less weight.

Recharger rifle: The damage on this is predictably pathetic, but the fact that you will never need ammo for it is a nice bonus. Well, no, not a bonus it's really the entire point. Worth carrying to dispatch all the minor enemies in your path that aren't threatening enough to spend your expensive ammunition on. Also fairly cheap to repair, thankfully, since this thing wears out at a fast pace with all the trigger-time it takes to kill things. Curiously heavy.

Multiplas rifle: it's.... a very very expensive plasma shotgun. Inaccurate, decent damage married to miserable rate of fire and obscene ammo consumption. Like the plasma rifle, it's rendered basically irrelevant by the Cowboy Repeater, which only shoots 1 bullet a time but shoots them fast, far, and cheap. Might be worth carrying for room by room clearing thanks to its high up-front single-shot power, but this is the only thing it's good at.

Tribeam laser rifle: See "laser rifle", and add more sarcasm.

Energy weapons: Big stuff

Flamer: A pretty good weapon if you don't have Pyromaniac, and an amazing weapon if you do. Consumes oceans of fuel and wears out kind of fast, but this will work on just about anything. Less good for big targets, completely unstoppable on hordes of small ones. Guns doesn't really have anything like this at all.

Gatling laser: This weapon wanted to be the Laser RCW but got lost along the road. It has a ridiculous rate of fire, but the low damage just ends up costing you a lot more ammo to accomplish the same thing that the RCW does. The only thing that saves its guns-brother the Minigun is the 5mm AP ammo.... which the gatling laser can't get.

Incinerator/Heavy Incinerator: Like the flamer, good if you don't have Pyromaniac, and amazing if you do. This one is very ammo efficient, and is basically an automatic "I win!" if you can get the high ground on an opponent. The lethality and ease of use of this thing is what the Grenade Launcher wants to be when it grows up.

Energy weapons: uniques
Spoiler

Plasma caster: A fine weapon. It is powerful, accurate, and only uses 1 of your precious MF cells per shot. This is basically what the plasma rifle should have been.

Pulse gun: overpowered for what it does, and utterly useless otherwise. Guns has nothing like it, but the sheer twinkynes of this makes me hesitant to call this a "win" for Energy Weapons.

Pew Pew: The laser pistol and the sniper rifle had a baby. Does good damage, but burns ammo at an absolutely horrifying pace and is unsuitable for close quarters fighting due to the constant reloading. This one wins the "fastest way to waste money" award: if you convert your E-cells to Max Charge E-cells, you can spend the equivalent of 65 rounds per shot to accomplish what the AMR does with one! :D Buy yourself a gauss rifle. Or get a:

YCS/186: An incremental upgrade over the gauss rifle with no negative side effects. Known to the State of California to cause head explosions.

AER-14 prototype: Didn't you already throw away your laser rifle? Why are you even looking at this thing. Go pick up an RCW, it will annihilate anything that this weapon is capable of scratching.

Q-35 Matter Modulator: Better than the plasma rifle in every way, which makes it easy to overlook just how mediocre this weapon really is. The Trail Carbine does more damage at a longer range, costs less to shoot, and has specialty ammo available that won't melt your gun. Again one of the better "all around" energy weapons which is just sad.

Tesla-Beaton cannon prototype: Do you want a godly weapon offering unparalleled damage that leaves your opponents splattered across the landscape, at the cost of having to reload after every shot? Yes? Then go buy a gauss rifle.


So let's recap. We have the gauss rifle, the RCW, and the fire throwers, which are very fine weapons and kill whatever you point them at in an efficient manner. But the thing is that they are all specialist weapons. The gauss is a sniper rifle of sniper rifles: You can kill just about anything with one shot, but you better hit with that one shot because you can only shoot once ever three seconds. The RCW is an energy-SMG that rips apart soft targets but is not capable of appreciably damaging things with tough armor/skin. And the flame weapons are either short-range panic buttons or artillery. And then you have all the other energy weapons. Some of them are decent all-arounders which can't quite match Guns, but most are several shades of pathetic. They work; they will kill the enemy; but compared to Guns, they cannot kill as quickly or cost-effectively. The only way to make most of the energy weapons shine is to min-max your character for critical hits, and in the end you're left with weapons that are as effective (not more effeictive) than regular old bullet-throwers... but cost you a lot more in perks and stats to get there, and a lot more in caps to buy their ammo and repairs.

With the exception of the specialist weapons, very expensive novelties.
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evelina c
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:44 am

What was the point of this post? Are you just trying to get users of En weapons riled up?
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Alan Whiston
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:42 am

He is posting his opinion. Don't kill him for it.
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Nick Pryce
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:01 am

I see your opinion, but I still think your arguments are senseless. I find them quite powerful in the rare instances I use them. But I have a fear of ash/goo pile clutter that wasn't resolved from F3. So I avoid them all in all. But your rant seems like an 'All my hate' type of rant.
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rae.x
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:55 pm

In my opinion Energy Weapons was by far the most powerful weapon skill in Fallout 3, however it was balanced by the fact that the weapons were less common (particularly early on) and much less versatile. Small Guns had a wide variety of weapons for different situations and energy weapons generally lacked specialization. A character couldn't really specialize in just energy weapons, they either needed a second weapon skill for the early levels or they needed a combat alternative like stealth - otherwise it would take quite some time before you had a worthwhile weapon and some leeway with your ammo.

Fallout New Vegas rebalanced the weapon skills. Energy weapons don't dominate in terms of damage any more but they're more versatile and there are more low-level options. Guns have their advantage but Energy Weapons benefit from a nice variety of perks that guns simply don't get. There are few high level perks that boost Guns and those that do are generally available to all weapons (Better Criticals), also available to Energy Weapons (Concentrated Fire) or have comparable alternatives (Sniper opposed to Center of Mass).

My first character focused on both guns and energy weapons, something I wouldn't normally do since there is so much overlap but I was interested to see how they were balanced. Early on I mostly ignored energy weapons, they were more viable but I preferred the options that traditional firearms gave me. Later on however I had several energy weapon perks under my belt and stopped using Guns entirely. I went through the last portion of the main quest with the Multiplas Rifle which, when combined with my plasma perks, tore through all of the enemies I came across. The very end wasn't a walk in the park but I didn't feel held back either.
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Georgine Lee
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:17 am

Let me add: I'm also upset that my laser pistol-wielding cowboy can't ride a dinosaur either.
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stevie trent
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:42 am

I disagree. They're not useless.






How the hell else can someone shrug off the cost of an AMR from the Gun Runners without plasma rifles?
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Arrogant SId
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:02 am

I disagree. They're not useless.






How the hell else can someone shrug off the cost of an AMR from the Gun Runners without plasma rifles?

By being filthy rich, which I am. :hubbahubba:
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Markie Mark
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:12 am

i use them only when i need to i dont like then all that much. some are strong but some are weak and not worth it
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Yama Pi
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:05 am

i busted in gun runners the other night and see what was in side all most NOTHING!
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Suzy Santana
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:15 pm

My first character focused on both guns and energy weapons, something I wouldn't normally do since there is so much overlap but I was interested to see how they were balanced. Early on I mostly ignored energy weapons, they were more viable but I preferred the options that traditional firearms gave me. Later on however I had several energy weapon perks under my belt and stopped using Guns entirely. I went through the last portion of the main quest with the Multiplas Rifle which, when combined with my plasma perks, tore through all of the enemies I came across. The very end wasn't a walk in the park but I didn't feel held back either.

Did we play the same game?
You can get Run and Gun with either of those two skills.
Plasma Spaz reduces 10% of AP which isn't really a noticable difference sine most plasma weapons have huge AP costs anyway.
Meltdown, get Adamanitum Skeleton, Hydra and a [censored]-load of doctors bags... You're going to need it..
Laser Commander, great for the RCW, useless for anything else. (See OP's opinion about most other laser weapons)
Concentrated Fire, you get it by putting points into both skills.
Set Lasers For Fun, great for RCW, useless for anything else. (See my opinion on Laser Commander)

Guns don't have that many superior perks either but imo most Energy Weapon perks svck. :shrug:
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Angel Torres
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:56 am

Did we play the same game?
You can get Run and Gun with either of those two skills.
Plasma Spaz reduces 10% of AP which isn't really a noticable difference sine most plasma weapons have huge AP costs anyway.
Meltdown, get Adamanitum Skeleton, Hydra and a [censored]-load of doctors bags... You're going to need it..
Laser Commander, great for the RCW, useless for anything else. (See OP's opinion about most other laser weapons)
Concentrated Fire, you get it by putting points into both skills.
Set Lasers For Fun, great for RCW, useless for anything else. (See my opinion on Laser Commander)

Guns don't have that many superior perks either but imo most Energy Weapon perks svck. :shrug:

You just said what OP's biggest complain is: EW is stupidly expensive to maintain, but NOT rightly so.

I just think there should be more ways to up keep EW: currently we have Fiend territory, Hidden Vally and Silver Rush.
Fiend territory: So I have to do a Vegas rush, fine, since I need to min-max anyways; then I have to kill them, that's okay, I can level fast; then crap, they carry Cowboy Repeater and Hunting Rifle out......
Hidden Vally: I need to do 2 quests before I actually get full access; free ammo is cool, but its random, be damn if they decide to put ECP in there; and I can't blow it up, ever......
Silver Rush: kinda lame for those who want to use Cass for her boose boost; or take a short cut from the Brotherhood.........
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Genocidal Cry
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:02 am

You just said what OP's biggest complain is: EW is stupidly expensive to maintain, but NOT rightly so.

I just think there should be more ways to up keep EW: currently we have Fiend territory, Hidden Vally and Silver Rush.
Fiend territory: So I have to do a Vegas rush, fine, since I need to min-max anyways; then I have to kill them, that's okay, I can level fast; then crap, they carry Cowboy Repeater and Hunting Rifle out......
Hidden Vally: I need to do 2 quests before I actually get full access; few ammo is cool, but its random, be damn if the decide to put ECP in there; and I can't blow it up, ever......
Silver Rush: kinda lame for those who want to use Cass for her boose boost; or take a short cut from the Brotherhood.........

Black Mountain, flamer fuel and incinerators.
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Naomi Lastname
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:46 am

Super Sledge, Mini gun, Assault Carbine etc. same as Fiend territory, if not worst.....
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Quick draw II
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:42 am

Also, OP? The Plasma Caster isn't a unique.
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Bambi
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:05 am

Well, both expensive to maintain (few enemies carry energy weapons for parts, and some of the best weapons are either crazy rare or unique).... but also expensive to get ammo for. The fact that few enemies carry energy weapons means few enemies carry energy *ammo*. Which means you have to buy it. ECPs have a base cost of 1 cap, E-cells are 2 caps, and MF-Cells are 3 caps... and you won't be paying these prices unless your Barter is extremely high. Most people will be paying 3 caps for an E-cell and 5 for an MF-cell. This is for *basic* ammunition, and most of the high powered energy weapons consume multiple cells per shot. And if you convert your ammo into Over-Charged or Max-Charged versions to try and get some real damage out of your energy weapons, your ammo costs are either 3 or 5 times greater (and your repair bill will be similar).

Also, OP? The Plasma Caster isn't a unique.


How many have you seen? I've only seen one.
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jess hughes
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:06 pm

A lot of people have complained about energy weapons. I don't know what the developers had intended, but I think energy weapons should be godlike and devastating. I also believe high damage equals high satisfaction, so if the weapon does high damage I'm satisfied. So, I've made the following mod:

Laser Pistols do +3 damage.
Laser Rifles do +7 damage.
Gatling Laser does +2 damage.
Laser RCW does +1 damage.
Plasma Defender does +4 damage.
Plasma Pistol does +8 damage.
Plasma Rifle does +18 damage.
Q35 Modulator does +13 base damage, +3 crit damage.
Recharger rifle does +9 damage.
Recharger pistol does +2 damage.
Tesla Beaton prototype does +50 damage.
Tesla Cannon does +30 damage. (are those even in the game?)
Tri-beam Laser Rifle does +3 base damage, +5 crit damage.

Also, I haven't used any energy weapons yet. I wonder how this'll work!
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Penny Wills
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:41 am

My problem with energy weapons is how they somehow manage to combine multiple guns weaknesses and almost zero of their strenghts. Lets take plasma rifle and compare it to closest gun equivalent Cowboy Repeater:

Damage per Shot:

32 for PR
32 for CBR

Attacks per second:

1.4 for PR
2.15 for CBR

Ammo cost and weight per shot:

6 caps 0.2 weight for PR
1 cap 0.035 weight for CBR

Spread:

0.2 for PR
0.04 for CBR

Durability:

75 for PR
120 for CBR

Action points per shot:

30 for PR
20 for CBR

Crit damage and multiplier:

32 with 2x multiplier for PR
32 with 1.25 multiplier for CBR

Magazine size:

12 for PR
7 for CBR

Mods:

2x faster projectile speed for PR
1.5x rate of fire for CBR
1,5 less weight for CBR
5 rounds larger magazine for CBR

Value and skill requirement:

1300 and 25 for PR
800 and 25 for CBR



There is some serious balance issues with the (early) game in my opinion if I kept using cowboy repeater/sniper rifle with 30 guns skill all the way to the point where I got YCS/186 and plasma caster while selling plasma rifles whenever I found one while having energy weapons somewhere in the 80s. Laser RCW and hope of better future were basicly the only reasons I didnt change to guns during my first playtrough. Using guns on my 2nd playthrough has been a lot easier and fun. Being able to buy around 1000 .50 cal bullets and around 2000 .308 bullets just by visiting the top three guns merchants once just doesnt compare to the amount of energy weapons ammo you can buy even if you buy ammo you dont use and convert them into usable form. Contreras especially sells just ridiculous amount of ammo, I was able to buy around 1,2k .308 bullets and 700 .50 cal bullets from him just by seeing him once when at higher level if counting special ammo.
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Rich O'Brien
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:23 pm

Tri-beam laser rifle can be repaired with regular laser rifles if you have Jury Rigging. That's pretty sweet.

Tears through ammo a bit fast though.
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Cat
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:07 pm

Yeah, energy weapons pretty much svck. Energy weapons NEED critical hits to kill any armored enemy, max charge or not. All you need for guns is some AP ammo if you got it, which you probably do because its dirt cheap. You don't need that critical hit with guns to kill anything, its just a nice bonus.

My energy weapon user was using the unique plasma rifle thinking, "Wow, this is so much better than that laser rifle. I can see their health bar go down even if it NOT a crit!." My energy weapon skill was at 85 by the way. Then I found a moderately repaired hunting rifle and was going to go use those 20 rounds of ammo I found. My gun skill was 19. Here's the kicker: It performed just as well as the unique plasma rifle. It shredded enemies like you wouldn't believe it. 85 energy weapon skill = 19 guns skill. Yeah, real nice.

Energy weapons should inherently ignore some of the target's DT. No way around it, it needs to be done.
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Khamaji Taylor
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 pm

The laser rifle needs a couple extra points of damage, and the plasma weapons could do a bit more too to really fit the whole slow and deadly concept. However, weapons like the RCW and Plasma caster have essentially made my energy weapon character a god. Up until I got these two, using energy weapons was probably only slightly more difficult than guns, if at all. Once I got those 2 energy weapons however, I feel like I broke the game. They are just so damn good together that nothing can stop you. Death claws go down in a few shots of the Caster, and I can kill 5 or 6 lightly armored enemies with a single clip of the RCW. Couple this with the fact that these weapons use ECPs and MFCs, that means all of the SECs you find can be converted into ammo for them. Right now on my level 20 EW character I have around over 1600 rounds for my RCW, I had over 2200, and 1200 for my Caster, had 1800 before a recent killing spree. I'm also sitting on 25k caps, that I have no need for.

I definitely think the Caster needs to be toned down, its damage is insanely high. The RCW is balanced against medium to heavy armored enemies, but light enemies get annihilated a little too quickly. So maybe the RCW could use a small drop in its Rate of Fire.

I don't think energy weapons are broke. I've played an all guns character and an all energy weapons and I think both are fine. Some weapons will svck at higher levels for both skills. A Laser Rifle is the equivalent of a 10mm SMG. Once enemies have a bit of armor it's useless. Just like you pick up a carbine, sniper, or rifle with guns at higher levels to punch through armor, you have to do the same with EW and grab one of the high end energy weapons to keep up. And if you can't afford supplying ammo for some of the deadlier EWs, try building up barter, it goes well with it.
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Chris Guerin
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:30 pm

Any complaints of Energy Weapons being expensive to repair and maintain are largely rendered moot if you collect/buy/craft Weapon Repair Kits.
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Dalia
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:58 am

Nicely written! Loved the commentary! :thumbsup:

I'll have to try an energy weapons character on my next go around...
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John Moore
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:22 pm

Weapon Repair Kits?
It repair 10~30 condition (not percentage, actually number) depends on your repair skill.........if you want decent effect than you may as well get JR so you can repair high tier weapon with low tier ones.......
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Latisha Fry
 
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Post » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:36 am

Yeah, energy weapons pretty much svck. Energy weapons NEED critical hits to kill any armored enemy, max charge or not. All you need for guns is some AP ammo if you got it, which you probably do because its dirt cheap. You don't need that critical hit with guns to kill anything, its just a nice bonus.

My energy weapon user was using the unique plasma rifle thinking, "Wow, this is so much better than that laser rifle. I can see their health bar go down even if it NOT a crit!." My energy weapon skill was at 85 by the way. Then I found a moderately repaired hunting rifle and was going to go use those 20 rounds of ammo I found. My gun skill was 19. Here's the kicker: It performed just as well as the unique plasma rifle. It shredded enemies like you wouldn't believe it. 85 energy weapon skill = 19 guns skill. Yeah, real nice.

Energy weapons should inherently ignore some of the target's DT. No way around it, it needs to be done.


This X1000000000.

I maxed out E. Weapons and would never do it again. I'm rerolling my character. The ONLY weapon that is truly useful in E. Weapons is the Pulse gun, that little bugger's a beast. Everything else in E. Weapons has a bigger brother that's more of a badass in Guns.

Also, flamers svck, OP.

They don't do jack squat on armored opponents and armor pen becomes a real issue on some of the tougher enemies.
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Kelly Upshall
 
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