I was more making the point that your inconsistency argument didn't really prove much. You could say that Lockpicking has a hard skill cap, as you put it, in the sense that you need X number of skill to be able to lockpick in plain sight. Or make wax keys out of locks you have picked. Or make a single lockpick last a life time. It doesn't prove anything or add to anything. The consistency argument is moot in my opinion.


Correction: 1 out of the 18 skills. It's a far cry from being ignored. What you said is a hyperbole because you're putting it up on a pedestal by saying it's a major part of the game. It's not. It would be a major part of the game if Skyrim was a lockpicking simulator. Just because something is not as important as something else doesn't mean it should be removed from the game. I mean if that was the case, then a lot of things would be removed from the game. Like marriage, for example.


If the game was based purely on player ability then it wouldn't be a game, it would be a virtual reality simulation. Obviously when player ability is taken into account, it's taken into account how a player interacts with the mechanics of the game and with the controls of the game (Keyboard + Mouse, Controller, etc.). Just because I'm not actually fighting a Dragon myself doesn't mean that player ability isn't being taken into account in combat and for the most part, without the use of dice rolls. Dice rolls to me is just a bunch of inconsistency and randomness.

Dice rolls like skill checks and random number generators are not a requirement in my opinion to making an RPG. They're just an outdated way of doing things in my opinion, hardly a requirement.

as already stated, a skill check is a minimum requirement. the mini can remain, but, with consequences/penalties and a more obvious difference rate of success vs. failure.

It isn't redundant. It's a double negative, which many people can actually use that technique quite effectively. In this case the OP did not use it correctly. The poster your bashed did use it correctly. He used it like that on purpose to make a point. Isn't Not something = is something.

Anyways, I think the lock picking here is pretty good. The difference from novice to Master is pretty huge. Thankfully, the lockpicks in this game are abundant. I never run out. Although, I swear sometimes it is more of a roll-of-the-dice type of success/fail rate. I find myself often thinking wth...I just tried that spot and it broke!

Lol. So you're the guy who calls the shots? Funny.

I actually found this even easier than Oblivion's, and Oblivion's was damn easy with a 10 lockpicking skill if you had any idea what you were doing.

Least its not like Morrowind's. Equip pick as weapon and jab at locked thing until it opens.

I personally prefered Oblivions style, it was easier then the style they chose for this game. Better style personally too.

I miss that system, actually.

Tongue in cheek, to be sure.

Hey, I totally get that. I want that experience back, too. Of course, I happen to think it's possible to rise above the old system by creating a hybrid that works as well as hybrid combat. I guess I'm just a foolish dreamer. I like the mini-game, but I'll be glad to include the auto-pick for your convenience. Not sure why there is any conflict at all, tbh.

Yeah, character skill means almost nothing. So ramp up the difficulty. I agree: I think it should have elements from both 'parents'. In fact, I'd prefer it if the character's skill played a larger role than the player's manual dexterity. But I don't think they should remove the mechanic any more than they should go back to 8-bit graphics. And not being able to see how a satisfying hybrid could be designed only indicates that you haven't thought much about such a design, which isn't surprising if you don't think it's possible. I can see a number of ways it could be done. I'm sure they said the same thing about hybrid combat when they started. In fact, I'm sure plenty of people complained about Morrowind's combat mechanics for doing a terrible job of integrating real time with role-playing. Didn't stop BGS from improving the design to the point where people forget to complain that it isn't 'real RPG'.

In any case, who cares if a few particularly talented and persistent players can still pick a lock with a 15 skill even after redesigning it? Is the way someone else plays the game ruining it for you? Or are you going to work hard to beat it on principal just to prove that it can be done so that you can say that it's broken? If they'd left the auto-pick option in we wouldn't be having this conversation because nobody would care.

Most of these arguments, while immensely entertaining, are incredibly silly. The only thing preventing a 'classic RPG gamer' from adopting a skill-based system is irritation. Here's how it could go: "Look, the lock says Adept. Guess I can't pick it since my Lockpicking is only 15. I'll come back later when my skill's improved." Here's how it does go: "Welp, my Willpower in RL is 30 so I guess I have to try to pick every lock in the game even though nobody's forcing me to. At least I can go to the forums and complain about it." Honestly, I understand that playing the mini-game is annoying for you, but your argument is based on a philosophical principal, not an insurmountable obstacle.

i must agree, i love the fallout feel aswell

And that sir or madam is where I stop debating lockpicking with you in particular. As a programmer myself that line just makes me cringe, because RPGs are nothing more than a set of rules using finite definitions to represent infinite values; where in the world is nothing but a fabricated set of fake values anyway.

As for the rest of the thread, I think both RPG and FPS elements need to be represented in this game but lockpicking is just unbalanced. A simple fix to make each tier of lock not pickable until you reach that skill level seems to be in order. Of course, putting more rewards behind bigger and badder locks would be needed as well.

RPGs are defined in many different ways, programmer or otherwise.

Uh, no. Any RPG is a game, any game is a program, any program is merely a set of rules that hinges on abstraction; be it on the computer or written on a notepad. The role playing part of it immediately adds another layer of abstraction that must account for and handle unknowns.

Any RPG video game is a video game, any video game is a program, any program is merely a set of rules that hinges on blah blah blah blah. Yeah, I get it, you're a programmer. You're still using programmer talk to completely avoid what I was getting at. Dice rolls as normal people know them are not necessary at all. For example, 15 percent chance to paralyze an opponent when doing a backwards power attack. That isn't necessary to make a game an RPG. Tada? Tada.

In Skyrim, even if your lockpick level is like 20 you can unlock master locks if you can afford to waste around 15 lockpicks. In Oblivion it was a lot more difficult if your character wasn't skilled. They should remove the lockpicking skill if they keep going with this system in the next game.

And I support Limabeanmage with this definition of RPG thing.

Every hack&slash open world video game can't become a RPG.

In reality, Oblivion's system was far easier because you could open a single lock without ever breaking a lockpick, regardless of your lockpicking/security skill, because there was no trial and error involved. Skyrim's system is more difficult because there is some trial and error involved. Guessing some would call it. Educated guesses for others. Then once you find the sweet spot is where more of the finesse comes into play.

In any case, function wise, Oblivion's lockpicking mini-game was far easier.

Ah, but they certainly are. If I have a certain level in the "Math" skill, won't that determine the percent chance of me correctly solving a random math problem? The lower the skill at math, the less likely I am to solve a given problem, and this is best described as a percentage and is therefor 'random chance'.

EDIT: The same applies to typical RPG skills, levels, and abilities. Why would a novice archer have the same chance of hitting a bulls-eye on a target as a master archer who has been practicing for decades? Moving to player-skill-based systems removes this depth, as it doesn't matter if my character is a good archer or not, it just matters if I am good at aiming.

I have one word to say at that... What?

And what is the alternative? Press triangle-square-forward-right to to iniate a paralyzing power attack? How is that any less 'outdated'?
It's just a preference hiding behind a false rhetoric of progress. Dice rolls allow a focus on character building rather than the player's refleces/dexterity/muscle memory/whatever. It's perfectly valid to prefer something else, but if TES was never about dice rolls than it sure as hell was never about such skills either.

I feel exactly the opposite. At least in oblivion it took some skill to lock pick.

I'm not avoiding what you're getting at all, you're missing my point. The same rules apply to all games. They all need to rely on arbitrary formulas to determine what happens because the world is being made from scratch and only exists with in a bounded set of definitions. To determine whether you paralyze someone or not, for example, needs to have a calculation done on it to determine whether it happens or not. That calculation can be as simple as stating whether or not you have enough skill to do that power attack and whether you used that power attack or not, but it's still there as a mathematical function to determine the outcome.

And for the last time dice roll is is misnomer, mathematical formula would be more appropriate. All games use it, all games need it, and RPGs are notorious for it because they themselves add another layer of variables. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean its not there.

Um, I didn't really say anything as to alternatives, but props to you for jumping into assumptions and putting words into my mouth. Usually alternatives take more time and effort to implement than a simple random dice roll. The simplest on the fly alternative I can give is that once you get the perk... wait for this... this will blow your mind... every single backwards power attack that lands paralyzes the enemy for X amount of time. That's what I call consistency.

It really irks me that I do the same exact action executed the same exact way but because of dice roll the game will decide, hey, you know what? Forget you. You don't get the paralyze or whatever else I'm rolling for. Didn't someone once say that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results? o.o ...

Well how about we talk about the visible variables? I'm not interested in talking about programming to a programmer because I'm not a programmer. The paralyze example is a visible example that I've brought up of dice rolls. Visible dice rolls. Visible random number generating at work. O.o ...

That's what I'd call extremely limiting and simplistic. An excellent way to make combat a bore. Putting an elemnt variety and unpredictability into combat would require some sort of solution.

Right, because having it be an inconsistent 15 percent chance makes it much more complex and exciting. I mean come on now.