as a Daedric artifact collector neither system is challenging. but Skyrim's version does feel more realistic.

let's just agree on the term "classic rpg" then

If you think it's purely just a guessing game then you really don't know what it's about. Yes, there's is some guessing involved, but there's also skill involved. Educated guesses also help the process. Just sayin'.

Most people can't even agree on what's an RPG and you expect for people to agree on Classic + RPG? That's funny stuff.

i think most people, with a little info, are more than capable of understanding what a classic rpg consisted of and seeing the changes that have taken place.

I'm pretty sure it's against the rules to discuss the definition of RPG in any case. Why? I'll let you connect the dots.

What does this have to do with the Role or immersion? I am talking about an aspect of an RPG that is does not follow any RPG rules.

I said it because as it stands now, the Minigame turns lockpicking into an Action that is dependent on the player's skill, not the character's skill. Where is the RPG aspect in that? My character's skills do not matter at all in picking a lock in this game.

Skyrim lockpicking system is a sad version of fallout's system. Increasing the skill is pointless as is taking perks in it. I like the lock-pick 'system' better than oblivion, but I don't like the lockpick skill overall.

That's a bit inaccurate. There is a difference between having 15 skill in Lockpicking + no perks (Minimum) and having 100 skill in Lockpicking + no perks. You can even proceed to make the difference much further if you add lockpicking enchantments and perks.

In any case, there are many actions which are dependent on the player's skill in The Elder Scrolls. Often times you'll find that it's a mix of player skills and numbers.

Character Skill > Player Skill is a hallmark of RPG. As is a system that determines the gameplay based on a ruleset applied to the player characters and the GM. The GM in this case being a computer program.

When you start putting player skill over character skill you move away from RPG.

An RPG is NOT just playing a role in a game despite what a lot of mentally challenged people will try to make you believe.

Well, participating in your character's actions is a form of immersion and a form of role-playing, so I'm not sure how you can consider it non-RPG. Maybe we're at this impasse because you think your definition precludes others? Where is this book of 'rules' that all RPGs must abide by?

I know exactly where you're coming from; I just don't happen to agree with you. Your character's skills also don't matter in combat. I have a 30th level character on Master with 100 Health and no combat/defense perks. I can beat any opponent in the game with a good strategy. Should that not be allowed? Am I not RPing the right way? Should the game prevent me from abusing the system and obviating the need for statistics? What you want is a turn-based RPG where everything is determined by a lookup table and die rolls. There's nothing wrong with that, but the ES series has never been like that.

+1

Oh lookey here, it's the messiah of RPGs. He will finally reunite all RPGers together because he has the one and true answer of what is an RPG. All hail the messiah of RPGs. :Giggles:

Hey, no disagreements here. I'd love it if the mini-game was more challenging so that the player had to invest in the skill to get the payoff. I've been playing RPGs since the 80's. Pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.

I'll just pretend the 'mentally challenged' comment was a typo since it's not only uninformed but an invalid form of argumentation.

I see what you're getting at but I couldn't help but notice that this is hyperbole. Character skills and gear do matter in combat. Maybe you can still take out X enemy and reach Y destination, but the in between, the Z, will be far different depending on your character's skills, perks, and gear.

Yes, it is easier to open a lock as your lockpicking skill increases. It changes the "sweet spot" for opening the lock to a larger area. However, I, as a player, can have my character open any lock in the game at a lock picking skill of 15 and that is what is wrong with the mini game.


Combat in Morrowind was like this. Landing a sword hit and dealing out damage was only dependent on your characters' skills in the weapon used. That is why you could swing away with a sword in Morrowind at low levels and barely land any hits. They tried to do this with a hit box in this game. However, what I am talking about is the minigame removes any and all needs to work on a lockpicking skill if the player can overcome the character's limitations. That is not Role Playing.

themagician- when you say that the scroll series has never been like that you are completely wrong. most of morrowind, including, combat, spell casting, lockpicking, etc. was completely based on character skill.

Fallout 3 system is best which required you to be at a certian skill level in lock picking to even attempt it.

Although I liked Oblivion's style more so because it had several steps into one lock unlike both Skyrim's and FO3 which only makes you go to one spot and turn and wa la its open a combo between both Oblivion and Fallout 3 was what I would love. And if you found Oblivion's extremely difficult then you are either horrible at it and shouldn't lock pick everything to begin with or your just whining that the game has a challenge and should be removed to make you feel even more superior.

^
I actually didn't really care for that at all with computers or lockpicking in Fallout. No matter how hard something is you should still be able to attempt it. I can attempt to do anything, doesn't mean I'll succeed at it. The system should at least allow for you to try and just be extremely difficult.

I think both Oblivion and Skyrim are pretty good systems and fun little mini games. I really liked Gothics lockpicking also. For the day and age it was a pretty good challenge. In case you haven't played Gothic it was all randomized left, right patterns. Harder locks just being longer strings. If I remember correctly the hardest lock in the game was a pattern of 17.. If you got the direction wrong the lockpick broke.

So then you, as a player, are very good at opening locks. I don't really see it as something of a flaw with the mini-game concept. Sure it could use a little more juice in the sense of making it more difficult as a player to open locks if you don't have the appropriate skill level/gear, but the concept is sound and is the way of modern gaming where we're no longer limited by technology (In my opinion).


You could just as easily argue that it was absurd to visually land tons of hits on an opponent and have them just miss because of a dice roll and that it is not role playing and just immersion breaking. That's the beauty of Role Playing, it can be defined in so many different ways. Toodleoo.

He might have been thinking back to Daggerfall where you could succeed in combat (Mainly melee combat), even if your skills weren't adequate enough, via player skill.

RPGs are built around algorithms and skill checks. This is not a new concept. Skill level determines effectiveness. When it comes to Lockpicking or Pickpocketing however, there is no grey area. You either pick the lock or lift an item - or you don't. The problem with the current system is that it takes player skill level almost completely out of the equation. They tried to introduce a mini-game that places focus on player skill level (for Lockpicking anyways). It is my opinion that when it comes to mini-games or secondary mechanics, they often-times become highly repetitive and more of a burden than they are fun. The reason this occurs is that normally these secondary mechanics are not treated with the same attention primary mechanics like combat for example is. This leads these "mini-games" feeling like afterthoughts. It is my opinion that you either introduce a mechanic that is not repetitive, non-challenging, and non-interesting OR you revert entirely to the classic system. Regardless, player skill should have a larger impact on how effective you are at picking a lock. The most obvious would be the complete inability to unlock certain tiers of locks until you had an adequate skill level.

I am not sure how this is hard to follow. Do you honestly find lockpicking to be fun in this game? I mean really? Do you like watching paint dry? Do you like surveying for materials by shooting probes ad nauseum in ME2?

That's real funny that you bring up Mass Effect 2. Now that was a real system of a useless time sink that served no purposed but to ... well, time sink. Personally, lockpicking is a far cry from watching paint dry and it's not something that takes a long time in any case, it's a quick in and out ordeal. Linking all those activities together is just a fallacy.

I am not commenting on how someone should feel about seeing their character's sword hits miss, I was responding to the post that said combat skills did not matter in earlier TES games.

Bottom line, if my character's lock picking skills are 24 (combining skills and tools), then they should not be able to open a level 25 lock. Period.

Well, I guess we can agree to disagree then. Fortunately for me, Bethesda seems to be on my side of things.